New windows have open space to the outside

[SuperUpset]

I had Slocomb replacement windows, the Harmony 143 series -- double hung with a half screen -- installed in August. I didn't open a window until late Sept/early Oct due to the ghastly summer heat. When I opened one, I opened the top part and slid the screen up into its place behind the open window. After a bit, I noticed a moth flying around inside so checked to make sure I'd put the screen totally in place and it was in place. I started looking around the window and then saw that there was an opening at the bottom of the screen between the screen and the window that was NOT ENCLOSED. It's over 1/2 inch and therefore will allow an insect of that size or even a lizard or wall-climbing snake to enter my house. Being bug phobic, I closed the window and sent an email with pictures the next day to the seller/installer. A representative of the company came to my house to see the problem, agreed it IS a problem and said no one else had ever complained about this. I truly believe that she didn't know this problem existed. Since then, I've been waiting for a solution. The usual idea I get is to have them provide full screens. I don't WANT full screens. One thing I really like about these windows is the amt of light that comes in with only half a screen. My yard is super shady and the unscreened portion provides lots of light. A few days ago I spoke with a man who supposedly works with Slocomb. He said he'd never heard of this problem, either. Finally he called back and suggested I turn the screens upside down, saying that would eliminate 2/3 of the opening. That's not acceptable!! Several people at the company, including the Slocomb guy, said the top window isn't supposed to be opened, or that most people don't open it. Well, it was designed to open, so it should be OK to open it and expect to protect my house from insects crawling inside. When the salesman showed me the windows, he even touted the idea that I could open the top window at night and and have better protection from intruders since there's a stop that won't allow the window to open completely. Had I known that new windows would leave my house vulnerable to insects crawling in, I'd have kept my old windows. I've paid half the window cost as a deposit and don't plan to pay the rest until there's a solution. I can provide photos to this forum to show this problem, but I'm new here and have no idea if that's possible. I told the installer/seller I want to contact Slocomb and was told that's fine, but they claim not to have an email for them. There's a cust svc email online, but I'd rather contact someone higher up. If anyone has ideas how to find that, plz share. The CEO is Carl Slocomb. I contacted the GA Consumer Protection dept and they suggested I keep working with the seller since they're still being pleasant. They also suggested contacting the BBB which I'll do. But I'm beginning to feel like no one is as concerned about my problem as I am. Friends with new replacement windows tell me theirs do NOT have this opening. I shouldn't have to use only half my windows since I paid for double-hung windows and should be able to open the top window. Ideas?

[Delaware Mike]

That is a common "after thought" engineering design flaw that we see often with vinyl DH windows with 1/2 screens. It's not just Slocumb. I have some Slocumb brochures laying around somewhere but that will not help me provide any solutions and I've never carried sold or installed them. I have serviced them often though being in Delaware and South Jersey.

I carry some highly regarding upper tear vinyl series that have the same flaw if utilizing a half screen. It takes a long term industry pro sales guy on top of his game to come up with every scenario to qualify or disqualify the correct product for each and every homeowner.

Sunrise puts larger gray pile weatherstripping on face of the bottom exterior sash which allows ventilation of the top and bottom sash while keeping out the critters. The problem then rears it's ugly head when ordered with full screens the weatherstripping is horrible looking. I've had to un-pinch it from the corner welds are remove it per request before which then would make the sash forever dependent upon a full screen.

Sorry. I hope your dealer finds a solution. Another manufacturer's screen could probably work but good luck researching that and finding out which one and who would furnish it for you. Costly too.

[WindowsDirectCinci]

I had Slocomb replacement windows, the Harmony 143 series -- double hung with a half screen -- installed in August. I didn't open a window until late Sept/early Oct due to the ghastly summer heat. When I opened one, I opened the top part and slid the screen up into its place behind the open window. After a bit, I noticed a moth flying around inside so checked to make sure I'd put the screen totally in place and it was in place. I started looking around the window and then saw that there was an opening at the bottom of the screen between the screen and the window that was NOT ENCLOSED. It's over 1/2 inch and therefore will allow an insect of that size or even a lizard or wall-climbing snake to enter my house. Being bug phobic, I closed the window and sent an email with pictures the next day to the seller/installer. A representative of the company came to my house to see the problem, agreed it IS a problem and said no one else had ever complained about this. I truly believe that she didn't know this problem existed. Since then, I've been waiting for a solution. The usual idea I get is to have them provide full screens. I don't WANT full screens. One thing I really like about these windows is the amt of light that comes in with only half a screen. My yard is super shady and the unscreened portion provides lots of light. A few days ago I spoke with a man who supposedly works with Slocomb. He said he'd never heard of this problem, either. Finally he called back and suggested I turn the screens upside down, saying that would eliminate 2/3 of the opening. That's not acceptable!! Several people at the company, including the Slocomb guy, said the top window isn't supposed to be opened, or that most people don't open it. Well, it was designed to open, so it should be OK to open it and expect to protect my house from insects crawling inside. When the salesman showed me the windows, he even touted the idea that I could open the top window at night and and have better protection from intruders since there's a stop that won't allow the window to open completely. Had I known that new windows would leave my house vulnerable to insects crawling in, I'd have kept my old windows. I've paid half the window cost as a deposit and don't plan to pay the rest until there's a solution. I can provide photos to this forum to show this problem, but I'm new here and have no idea if that's possible. I told the installer/seller I want to contact Slocomb and was told that's fine, but they claim not to have an email for them. There's a cust svc email online, but I'd rather contact someone higher up. If anyone has ideas how to find that, plz share. The CEO is Carl Slocomb. I contacted the GA Consumer Protection dept and they suggested I keep working with the seller since they're still being pleasant. They also suggested contacting the BBB which I'll do. But I'm beginning to feel like no one is as concerned about my problem as I am. Friends with new replacement windows tell me theirs do NOT have this opening. I shouldn't have to use only half my windows since I paid for double-hung windows and should be able to open the top window. Ideas?

I have sold/installed over 20,000 windows. From numerous manufacturers at varying price points. This isn't a Slocomb issue. In my opinion it is in issue of your use and not being willing to compromise. If you want to regularly vent from the top order a full screen. Most manufacturers work the same way. Slide the screen up there will be a gap. If it's a light issue that you don't want a full screen than have them use a more clear screen mesh. Who pays for that? That's for
You all to work out. But you not paying your balance because you don't like the design of 95% of vinyl windows out there, that "you" purchased isn't right. Compromise with the installer and everyone wins. Most Half screens aren't made to go both ways.

[Delaware Mike]

Sounds like during the demo that if you pointed out how you may have liked to orient the screens and top sash ventilation, the sales rep could have showed you the pros and cons of how the half screens work and their limitations provided he is experienced. I know my SL Elements and LS platforms don't offer a half screen that will allow top sash ventilation without the same gap you're referring to. You have to go full screen with them.

[SuperUpset]

That is a common "after thought" engineering design flaw that we see often with vinyl DH windows with 1/2 screens. It's not just Slocumb. I have some Slocumb brochures laying around somewhere but that will not help me provide any solutions and I've never carried sold or installed them. I have serviced them often though being in Delaware and South Jersey.

I carry some highly regarding upper tear vinyl series that have the same flaw if utilizing a half screen. It takes a long term industry pro sales guy on top of his game to come up with every scenario to qualify or disqualify the correct product for each and every homeowner.

Sunrise puts larger gray pile weatherstripping on face of the bottom exterior sash which allows ventilation of the top and bottom sash while keeping out the critters. The problem then rears it's ugly head when ordered with full screens the weatherstripping is horrible looking. I've had to un-pinch it from the corner welds are remove it per request before which then would make the sash forever dependent upon a full screen.

Sorry. I hope your dealer finds a solution. Another manufacturer's screen could probably work but good luck researching that and finding out which one and who would furnish it for you. Costly too.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't quite understand this: "Sunrise puts larger gray pile weatherstripping on face of the bottom exterior sash which allows ventilation of the top and bottom sash while keeping out the critters. "

Can you explain more or direct me to where I might see what you mean?

[SuperUpset]

I had Slocomb replacement windows, the Harmony 143 series -- double hung with a half screen -- installed in August. I didn't open a window until late Sept/early Oct due to the ghastly summer heat. When I opened one, I opened the top part and slid the screen up into its place behind the open window. After a bit, I noticed a moth flying around inside so checked to make sure I'd put the screen totally in place and it was in place. I started looking around the window and then saw that there was an opening at the bottom of the screen between the screen and the window that was NOT ENCLOSED. It's over 1/2 inch and therefore will allow an insect of that size or even a lizard or wall-climbing snake to enter my house. Being bug phobic, I closed the window and sent an email with pictures the next day to the seller/installer. A representative of the company came to my house to see the problem, agreed it IS a problem and said no one else had ever complained about this. I truly believe that she didn't know this problem existed. Since then, I've been waiting for a solution. The usual idea I get is to have them provide full screens. I don't WANT full screens. One thing I really like about these windows is the amt of light that comes in with only half a screen. My yard is super shady and the unscreened portion provides lots of light. A few days ago I spoke with a man who supposedly works with Slocomb. He said he'd never heard of this problem, either. Finally he called back and suggested I turn the screens upside down, saying that would eliminate 2/3 of the opening. That's not acceptable!! Several people at the company, including the Slocomb guy, said the top window isn't supposed to be opened, or that most people don't open it. Well, it was designed to open, so it should be OK to open it and expect to protect my house from insects crawling inside. When the salesman showed me the windows, he even touted the idea that I could open the top window at night and and have better protection from intruders since there's a stop that won't allow the window to open completely. Had I known that new windows would leave my house vulnerable to insects crawling in, I'd have kept my old windows. I've paid half the window cost as a deposit and don't plan to pay the rest until there's a solution. I can provide photos to this forum to show this problem, but I'm new here and have no idea if that's possible. I told the installer/seller I want to contact Slocomb and was told that's fine, but they claim not to have an email for them. There's a cust svc email online, but I'd rather contact someone higher up. If anyone has ideas how to find that, plz share. The CEO is Carl Slocomb. I contacted the GA Consumer Protection dept and they suggested I keep working with the seller since they're still being pleasant. They also suggested contacting the BBB which I'll do. But I'm beginning to feel like no one is as concerned about my problem as I am. Friends with new replacement windows tell me theirs do NOT have this opening. I shouldn't have to use only half my windows since I paid for double-hung windows and should be able to open the top window. Ideas?

I have sold/installed over 20,000 windows. From numerous manufacturers at varying price points. This isn't a Slocomb issue. In my opinion it is in issue of your use and not being willing to compromise. If you want to regularly vent from the top order a full screen. Most manufacturers work the same way. Slide the screen up there will be a gap. If it's a light issue that you don't want a full screen than have them use a more clear screen mesh. Who pays for that? That's for
You all to work out. But you not paying your balance because you don't like the design of 95% of vinyl windows out there, that "you" purchased isn't right. Compromise with the installer and everyone wins. Most Half screens aren't made to go both ways.

During the demo, I had no experience at all with choosing new windows. Mine were original to my 1979 house & slid side to side. I had seen windows that opened for cleaning and I liked that idea but mainly I wanted no grids and lots of light. The salesman stressed to me that these new ones could open at the top as well as the bottom and touted the advantages of opening at the top. I would never have dreamed of asking if the screens allowed insects to crawl into my house. The reasonable expectation would be that screens not only allow air flow but prevent creatures from entering the house. The company that sold these to me has a good reputation so I assumed the salesman would tell me what I needed to know. From what I'm hearing now from the company, they didn't know there would be a gap that allowed things to crawl in. The windows were not represented truthfully to me and it's up to the manufacturer to remedy the problem. I've contacted some atty friends and Clark Howard's help team (a consumer advocate on radio and TV) and they all say I should not finish paying until my windows do what I was promised. They should come up with a fix but if they can't, then I expect them to discount my price.

[WindowsDirectCinci]

As you said the company has a good reputation and I'm sure did not intend to mislead you. I am familiar with that window and other brands as well. It isn't anyones fault, manufacturers or installers or yours. Just the nature of double hung windows and even sliding windows would do the same thing. I can really only see two options.
1) full screens. To me this is the most logical. There are different screen meshes that provide different levels of clarity so if this is your only reason for not wanting full screens I would argue that with the right mesh you'd allow even more light in.
2) rig some thing up. additional adhesive pile weatherstripping on the screen frame may help with the problem.

Almost any window you chose wether it be company A,B,or C you'd have the same issue. I would highly doubt the manufacturer or anyone can remedy anything other than providing full screens. It's just how they are designed. Half screens are designed to provide reasonable insect protection when the bottom sash is opened. Another reason I try to encourage customers to come to our showroom to see all of our products so there are no surprises.Still most of them don't

[masterext]

I agree with windowsdirectcinci
You have absolutely no right to not pay your installer. Almost all vinyl windows are designed that way and most customers never make that complaint. Holding money from your contravctor because you dont like a specific design flaw has nothing to do with the contractor, you need to pay him.
There is no way any contractor will let a customer hold money for the reason you are specifying.

[SuperUpset]

I agree with windowsdirectcinci
You have absolutely no right to not pay your installer. Almost all vinyl windows are designed that way and most customers never make that complaint. Holding money from your contravctor because you dont like a specific design flaw has nothing to do with the contractor, you need to pay him.
There is no way any contractor will let a customer hold money for the reason you are specifying.

If the company I'm dealing with only did installation, I'd agree with you that I shouldn't withhold payment. But this is the company that sold me the windows and they should have revealed all the info about the windows. They understand that they need to find a fix to the problem and haven't pushed for payment. If all sales/installation companies know that almost all vinyl windows are designed this way, then they should be obligated to inform their customers that the screens won't protect them against an insect invasion. Customers aren't window experts and have no way to know about this defect unless an informed person tells them. Customers don't make the complaint because they don't know the gap to the outside is there. I wouldn't know, either, if I hadn't seen an insect flying in front of the window and done a close examination of the window to find the source to the outside. When I told the cust svc woman at my sales/installer company and she came to look at it, she expressed as much shock as I did that the problem existed. If they had known that gap existed, they should have informed me and I would have bought single hung windows instead and even saved some money. No one I've spoken with at the sales/installation company -- not even the Slocomb rep or a co-owner of the sales/installation company -- has said they knew it was there. They need to work with the manufacturer to fix my problem. If I pay the sales/installation company now, they won't be as likely to help me find a remedy. And, of course I don't "like" a design flaw that invites insects to come inside. I was sold a window where I expected certain things -- due to what the salesman told me -- and I didn't get those things.

[WindowsDirectCinci]

I agree with windowsdirectcinci
You have absolutely no right to not pay your installer. Almost all vinyl windows are designed that way and most customers never make that complaint. Holding money from your contravctor because you dont like a specific design flaw has nothing to do with the contractor, you need to pay him.
There is no way any contractor will let a customer hold money for the reason you are specifying.

If the company I'm dealing with only did installation, I'd agree with you that I shouldn't withhold payment. But this is the company that sold me the windows and they should have revealed all the info about the windows. They understand that they need to find a fix to the problem and haven't pushed for payment. If all sales/installation companies know that almost all vinyl windows are designed this way, then they should be obligated to inform their customers that the screens won't protect them against an insect invasion. Customers aren't window experts and have no way to know about this defect unless an informed person tells them. Customers don't make the complaint because they don't know the gap to the outside is there. I wouldn't know, either, if I hadn't seen an insect flying in front of the window and done a close examination of the window to find the source to the outside. When I told the cust svc woman at my sales/installer company and she came to look at it, she expressed as much shock as I did that the problem existed. If they had known that gap existed, they should have informed me and I would have bought single hung windows instead and even saved some money. No one I've spoken with at the sales/installation company -- not even the Slocomb rep or a co-owner of the sales/installation company -- has said they knew it was there. They need to work with the manufacturer to fix my problem. If I pay the sales/installation company now, they won't be as likely to help me find a remedy. And, of course I don't "like" a design flaw that invites insects to come inside. I was sold a window where I expected certain things -- due to what the salesman told me -- and I didn't get those things.

Half screens provide reasonable insect protection when used how they are intended, down. If you want to vent from the top, ask them to provide you what the full screens. Slocomb uses flex screens that have no frame so it won't obscure your view. Put in a ultra clear mesh and it'll be virtually invisible from 10' and may even increase your light transmittance.
There problem solved

[Delaware Mike]

I'm not sure there is going to be any kind of fix for this other than a full screen? Rigging up any kind of weatherstripping applied to the exterior face of the top of bottom sash will be very strange and likely would need to be done with very aggressive peel and stick adhesive to hold up to the elements. I may be back tracking on my previous statement in regards to how 1/2 screens seem to be designed, however if the screens were able to fully seat higher towards the head of the window the exterior frame design of the vinyl extrusion would loose symmetry.

Even my Sunrise product that doesn't feature weatherstripping on the interior face atop the screen, but rather on the vinyl sash will still have a small gap for a bug to get in. Like WDC mentioned previously, they're not designed to work and vent that way without a full screen. I do know a lot of sales reps are either misinformed or simply haven't encountered anyone venting their DH units in this manner to realize that during a demo they need to state a full screen must be optioned to vent in that manner to be bug tight.

[SuperUpset]

I agree with windowsdirectcinci
You have absolutely no right to not pay your installer. Almost all vinyl windows are designed that way and most customers never make that complaint. Holding money from your contravctor because you dont like a specific design flaw has nothing to do with the contractor, you need to pay him.
There is no way any contractor will let a customer hold money for the reason you are specifying.

If the company I'm dealing with only did installation, I'd agree with you that I shouldn't withhold payment. But this is the company that sold me the windows and they should have revealed all the info about the windows. They understand that they need to find a fix to the problem and haven't pushed for payment. If all sales/installation companies know that almost all vinyl windows are designed this way, then they should be obligated to inform their customers that the screens won't protect them against an insect invasion. Customers aren't window experts and have no way to know about this defect unless an informed person tells them. Customers don't make the complaint because they don't know the gap to the outside is there. I wouldn't know, either, if I hadn't seen an insect flying in front of the window and done a close examination of the window to find the source to the outside. When I told the cust svc woman at my sales/installer company and she came to look at it, she expressed as much shock as I did that the problem existed. If they had known that gap existed, they should have informed me and I would have bought single hung windows instead and even saved some money. No one I've spoken with at the sales/installation company -- not even the Slocomb rep or a co-owner of the sales/installation company -- has said they knew it was there. They need to work with the manufacturer to fix my problem. If I pay the sales/installation company now, they won't be as likely to help me find a remedy. And, of course I don't "like" a design flaw that invites insects to come inside. I was sold a window where I expected certain things -- due to what the salesman told me -- and I didn't get those things.

Half screens provide reasonable insect protection when used how they are intended, down. If you want to vent from the top, ask them to provide you what the full screens. Slocomb uses flex screens that have no frame so it won't obscure your view. Put in a ultra clear mesh and it'll be virtually invisible from 10' and may even increase your light transmittance.
There problem solved

I don't understand how a screen can transmit more light than without it. Can you explain, please? Remember, I know nothing about windows or screens. Thanks.