Window World ?

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windowmann2000
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

#16 Post by windowmann2000 »

Almost forgot this little tid-bit their two lite slider is $334 and with extras........low-e and wrap goes for about $450.00 couple that with a bad install and that's no bargain.

wayside
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:37 am

#17 Post by wayside »

> The main problem with them is that they pay their installers 35 bucks a hole wrap included.

What is considered to be a "fair price" for an installer to make per window? (I understand this isn't what the window company is charging; I'm not asking for any trade secrets either, I'm just curious as to what a ballpark would be for a competent, experienced installer).

I just got something in the mail from a company selling an "all welded double hung white vinyl window with low-e" for $165 uninstalled, $225 installed, or $60 for the install. The sheet doesn't mention wrapping, I assume that is extra. If the installer makes half of the $60... it that good?

It took about 30 man-hours to install my 16 new windows (not counting the wrap), and $30/per = $480, that comes out to, what, $16 bucks an hour?

That's not much. I pay my housecleaner more than that. I hope my window guy pays his installers more than that, they did a pretty nice job.

Window4U (IL)
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois

#18 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Rates in my area that contractors pay their employees range from $85 to $125 per window for a basic vinyl window installation. Plus there are then expenses such as Workmens comp, etc. Not cheap, but most of the guys are really competent and the customers get a professional job.

In my area, WW pays $30 to their subs. My question to you all is....why aren't these guys working for the companies who pay better? There must be a reason they have to work for 3-4 times less.

eberry
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Central US

#19 Post by eberry »

Take this info with a grain of salt, because it all came from the owner of a WW franchise who is also a fairly slick salesperson:

The local Window World here claims they can get good subcontractors working for a lower wage because they can keep them consistently busier than the other companies can. They claimed their busiest team was still making 100+K per person per year, because they elected to work as much as they could (often 6 days a week, 6-10 hours/day). The more average teams (working less) were making about 55K per person per year. I did not ask what the rate per window was, but they were required to be insured for liability and workmen's comp, and at least one installer on the team was required to be factory trained.

On my visit there, I did find that only 1 of the 3 people working at the franchise (the owner) really knew much about the windows they sell. Had the owner not been there, I would have immediately left in disgust rather than staying to learn a little more.

DWS
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:58 pm
Location: Birmingham Al

Re: Window World ?

#20 Post by DWS »

Window World

Just to throw in my 2 cents worth. I have a WW dealer in my location so it is something we have do deal with as well. But guys think about it, I read a post that WW even with their buying power is only getting their windows for 40 less a window Yet their a couple of hundred a hole less. What would you have to cut out of your service to sell at those prices and stay alive? Obiously you could out quality labor, which we know they do, Yet when I ask my customers if their willing to cut out quality labor the answer in emphatically NO. So lets cut corners on service, you know installation mangers are expensive when you consider pay roll, taxes and benifits, and who needs them anyways. Well all my clients would prefer to have a manager to call if their was a problem duirng the install or even a few years down the road. Heck while talking about a few years down the road lets talk about service after the sale. If you cant get the windows installed correctly to start with what makes think you can service them down the road. I have yet to find a sub contractor that will put windows in for 35.00 a hole let alone be willing to go back in a couple of years to service his work. I can go on and on. But to boil it all down people like that buy WW either are not educated enough on product and install or just don't care and want the cheapest price possiable. We can help the people that want cheap cheap cheap, but for the majority we can do what we do best and eductate consumers as to the value and benifits of the entire package that we offer.
Jason

homeowner
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 pm

#21 Post by homeowner »

ok. to be honest, i think you guys fear ww. how do you know what they pay? you based what you said on that. why do we have to be ignorant? why do you think ww doesnt have managers? this is one reason i went with ww. most window people in my city dont have an office. ww does. buying from ww says i have another place to complain if necessary. most window co. are not going to be responsible for install. what about that guy on the other thread that bought the bullet proof schucos. bet he paid more than me, but it appears he unfortunately got a bad install. btw, the schuco people used subs. whod a thunk it? can they call schuco? i would try. i can certainly call ww inc if necessary. also, the closest price to ww was a local installer whose estimate showed install cost. $125 a hole. the window cost was also more. he also gave me a written estimate without looking at my house. why ww? product connected to install. started with champion. ww saved me $4k. if i have good fortune, ill get a lot for little. the people who bought schuco probably payed more trying to insure a quality install. its a pig in a poke. i want lots of remedy power! my ww is a bbb member (arbitration). 1 complaint resolved in 3 years bodes well.

Window4U (IL)
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois

#22 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Window4U (IL) wrote: People signing up today and posting ww experience and pretending to be customers.....
Like I said right from the start, you are no homeowner.
Only a salesman would pick "homeowner" as an alias to push his products. Give us a break already.

Wds83
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Clarks Summit,PA

#23 Post by Wds83 »

homeowner wrote: ww saved me $4k. if i have good fortune, ill get a lot for little. .
That quote says it all. Your basically gambling with your purchase. You get what you pay for. Keep your fingers crossed when there installing those babies. Owe I forgot you have alot of remedy power with them, The job will look great if they have to redo the window and the capping.. Silicon is easily cleaned from your new window and I bet the installer is going to be so happy to see you again. good luck...

DWS
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:58 pm
Location: Birmingham Al

#24 Post by DWS »

homeowner wrote:ok. to be honest, i think you guys fear ww. how do you know what they pay? you based what you said on that. why do we have to be ignorant? why do you think ww doesnt have managers? payed more trying to insure a quality install. its a pig in a poke. i want lots of remedy power! my ww is a bbb member (arbitration). 1 complaint resolved in 3 years bodes well.

Mr Homeowner

Please don't take what I said personally. Im speaking in generalities. My conclusions about WW is based Solely on what I see here in my area. However I will have to say the easiest way to get past WW here, is to give my clients Two Lists of homes to go and look at, One as you can guess is a list of homes with our windows installed by our installers, and as you can also guess the other list is of home that had work done by other contractors. Not all jobs on this list were done by WW, but they are the majority and the worst. ( I do not tell my clients who specifically did the job, as not to get in to slamming any one company). Now this my be isolated to just my Area, and you may get a great job... If you signed a work order more than three days ago your stuck and all you can do is cross your fingers anyway, But seriously do the math Take the window even discounted, and the labor even discounted, and the insurance, and the licences, and the permits, and the coil, and the caulk, and the managment team, and the support staff, and the Office / Warehouse space, and the electric bill, and the phone bill, and the industry accosiation dues, And the continued trains classes........ The list still goes on but I've already passed 185.00 at quality window and installation cost. So The question I have for you is what is being left out.. Numbers never lie and good is never cheap and cheap in never good....
I rest
Jason

Wds83
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Clarks Summit,PA

#25 Post by Wds83 »

DWS wrote:
homeowner wrote:ok. to be honest, i think you guys fear ww. how do you know what they pay? you based what you said on that. why do we have to be ignorant? why do you think ww doesnt have managers? payed more trying to insure a quality install. its a pig in a poke. i want lots of remedy power! my ww is a bbb member (arbitration). 1 complaint resolved in 3 years bodes well.

Mr Homeowner

Please don't take what I said personally. Im speaking in generalities. My conclusions about WW is based Solely on what I see here in my area. However I will have to say the easiest way to get past WW here, is to give my clients Two Lists of homes to go and look at, One as you can guess is a list of homes with our windows installed by our installers, and as you can also guess the other list is of home that had work done by other contractors. Not all jobs on this list were done by WW, but they are the majority and the worst. ( I do not tell my clients who specifically did the job, as not to get in to slamming any one company). Now this my be isolated to just my Area, and you may get a great job... If you signed a work order more than three days ago your stuck and all you can do is cross your fingers anyway, But seriously do the math Take the window even discounted, and the labor even discounted, and the insurance, and the licences, and the permits, and the coil, and the caulk, and the managment team, and the support staff, and the Office / Warehouse space, and the electric bill, and the phone bill, and the industry accosiation dues, And the continued trains classes........ The list still goes on but I've already passed 185.00 at quality window and installation cost. So The question I have for you is what is being left out.. Numbers never lie and good is never cheap and cheap in never good....
I rest
Jason
Excellent Post :D well said......

homeowner
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 pm

#26 Post by homeowner »

jason, i didnt take it personally. i was just seeing humor in this. heres my point. sometimes ww is attacked for being to cheap. other times, they will run the cost up. i think it is neither. that was my point earlier. the person i almost went with was also 2nd cheapest. btw, in my area there are 3 other big advertisers that are below ww costs. they also go up. i rejected them early. ww wasnt that much cheaper is my point, and cost more than some. what i liked is their willingness to be so up front with costs. they are reasonable. and they are connected to the window product. i looked at their work. visited with customer (1). seemed fine. im scared, like many homeowners and it seemed a cheaper way to do what most people buy with champion for. i might be wrong, but it appears more comforting to have one place to voice any complaint.

i said this before. i did what i did because of these boards, not in spite. i also STILL appreciate all the help from those who know their stuff. and i am a homeowner LOL. soon ill get my windows, lose my obsession, and go away. im a school teacher by trade. play a mean guitar. dont do windows!

DWS
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:58 pm
Location: Birmingham Al

#27 Post by DWS »

i said this before. i did what i did because of these boards, not in spite. i also STILL appreciate all the help from those who know their stuff. and i am a homeowner LOL. soon ill get my windows, lose my obsession, and go away. im a school teacher by trade. play a mean guitar. dont do windows![/quote]


Every dealership is run by a different person and that person has a great part in controling the experience that their customers will have. It soulds like your guys care for your well being, and maybe you will be alright..
I wish you the best of luck, and whatever happens keep on smiling...
Jason

windowmann2000
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

Window World

#28 Post by windowmann2000 »

I have the installer pay sheet in front of me for Milw Wisconsin. It's $25.00 to install a window and $25.00 to wrap and the installer pays for the coil so he's getting about $45.00 per. About half the jobs they do get wrapped. They base their prices on hopefully easy installs and in the good weather expect 10 per day per man, so they have to run. I'm 60 and if it's an easy install I can do 8 or 9 a day and a young tough guy probably 12 or more. These are ranch homes with 10-13 windows and really every installers dream. Their installers in busy franchises make from $40,000-$60,000 per year...........none of them make a hundred K. Take away insurance tools and running the tires off of your truck and it's a $20.00 per hour job. That however is usually where their skills end, and if new inside mitred stops are required your probably won't have a decent mitred corner or new casing the same thing. These guys get the basics done but if the job gets tough and requires the next skill level up the homeowner is not going to get that quality install. A good indicator is also taking a good look at the caulking. I have had customers ask me why I didn't caulk some windows when I had and if you look close you'd find no let off marks or gobbs or whatever but simply a excellent caulking job (thanks to window4u for steering me onto Novaflex) but I didn't learn that overnight.
Bottom line here is if you have a simple job a beginner can do and you don't mind if the caulk is a little messed up and a cheap window fits your needs WW is ok. Bear in mind though these guys are in a hurry all the time and won't pay much attention to detail so even with an easy install a few corners could easily be cut.

eberry
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Central US

#29 Post by eberry »

windowmann2000, I think it is reasonable that a rare WW installer might take in 100K per year before expenses. The franchise owner was quoting the sum of the checks he pays to the installer, not subtracting out supplies, insurance, trucks, tools, groceries, etc. I don't dispute those are costs they have to pay and it definitely affects the bottom line, just not the sum of their paychecks, from the owner's perspective.

If we are optimistic, assume they make $35 for an average window (a few are trimmed), 11 windows/day for a fast person, average 5.2 days/week of work (work some Saturdays, miss a few weekdays for weather), and work 50 weeks/year (vacation). The total is: 35*11*5.2*50 = $100,100. In a best case estimate (perfect weather, higher labor costs, 14 windows/day, etc.), they could make a litttle more. Granted, take home pay once expenses are subtracted is much lower.

I'm not trying to defend WW here and by no means trying to convince people they usually do a good job, but the numbers the WW owner gave me do not seem unreasonable, in my opinion.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#30 Post by Guy »

I know for a fact they are paying $30.00 a hole here. They came to me to install their window and I laughed in their face! I also know they are having a huge problem finding installers. They may be here today but you can bet the Ranch they will have a tough time staying alive over the next 10 years. The mistakes and shortcuts will catch up sooner or later. My guys are making around the same as W4U stated above, maybe a bit more. You have to pay your good installers well or their gone. As for unemployment and Workers Comp I have that one figured out no problem with my subs. Here in MN your born with the states hand in your pocket book. They never leave and they're always taking! If you want to pay for these windows and gamble on the deal. It's your money and your house! You can pay us now to do it right, or pay us later to fix it!!! Either way we warned you!

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