Window World ?

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tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#46 Post by tah »

homeowner,

keep up the good fight. Wave the Window World banner high and proud. Spew the propaganda you've either been spoon fed or simply chosen to believe.

People here are expressing opinions. The folks in the business who respond here will never get your business. But you know what, we don't care about that. You and people like you will always go the cheapest route. That's okay, it's certainly your choice, your money and your house. No one here or anywhere has the right to tell you what to do.

What we do care about is others being given poor information upon which they may base their decisions. You seem to think we care about where you spend your money or that we're somehow scared of Window World because they represent a new World (pun intended) Order in the way windows will be sold.

I really don't give two craps about WW. And I certainly won't lose sleep because we have different opinions. I do know this.....everyone here who has been in the business for 10, 20 or 30 years says the same thing. WW is not a smart choice. I'm sure you want to feel you're making a solid decision and really using your brain to show us how windows should be marketed and sold. I'm also very certain you won't gain 10, 20 or 30 years experience in a few months. Somehow you expect people reading these posts to accept your opinion over those expressed by industry veterans. Good luck on that!

Well. I'm about done here. The shows over and I'm sure homeowner will be back to argue for WW some more. Doesn't seem like anything we say will ever deter him in his quest for sub-par quality. Let's let him go so he can have WW do his install.

homeowner, please remember these conversations about 10 years from now when you're shopping for windows again. Trust me, you will be.
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

homeowner
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 pm

#47 Post by homeowner »

tah, let me try once more to express my perspective. i dont think you see it. after looking into replacement windows for a while, i concluded that it is a risky investment. my biggest concern was not price. it was second. number one was dont get burned. now or down the road. i think the best advice about the install is someone with plenty window expertise. but what worries me more is: what if im not happy, now or later. im sure things more often work out, but i cant afford a whole house window problem without a for sure remedy when they dont. i know im repeating myself, but the answer for me was go with champion because they cant later point fingers at each other. but they were 1 way overpriced, 2 too tin men like.

im not pimping for ww. look at it from my perspective. im full of concern until this is over because of the dangers. i think most homeowners go through this worry, and for reason.

i get the sears, champion type product backing for much less.
i never got the treatment that every other window company (but one) gave me: buy now to get this deal, and always a change in cost along the way. which brings us to the other reasons i have advised ww. they will tell you to the penny how much the cost even over the phone! thats what a lot of people who come to this board want. just a ballpark idea. most dont want to do this without comming out. we understand, more likely to sell. i dont blame those who do it that way. but i think ww is great for the consumer. even if you dont buy from them, it gives the consumer insight to what might be reasonable.

one last thing. ww isnt always the cheapest or always that much different from other competitors. what ww does is stops the consumer from signing that 1st contract and blowing several thousand bucks because the 1st is like the last as far as i can tell. i understand the risk im taking, but i saw risks everywhere i looked. this will probably be it for me. all i can do is wait, hope for that compitent install. dont want to argue. i dont have an agenda. just wanted to share my thoughts about what i did. i thought ww might catch flack. i didnt expect so much. judging from the amount of business i see at my local ww i dont forsee them checking out anytime soon. btw, someone said ww doesnt go to home shows, stating their fear of close inspection, thats how i found them in my state. there was over 15 different booths. 4 had addresses that i could come to. 2 were strip mall cubicables with 1 window frame there to look at. i know the best thing would be a good window with a quality install by experts. i had an old porsche motor rebuilt. wanted the best. i chose great mechanic and a great machinist. you guessed it, i had probs, both pointed at the other and i got burned. maybe im paranoid.
thanx again, dont mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#48 Post by tah »

homeowner,

No ruffled feathers here. If you get the WW windows I hope it goes well for you.

I think the problem I and many others have is we've seen lots of "price based" windows in the past. If WW as a price leader gives true long-lasting value, they will be the first. Just heard it all before.

Look at it this way. Let's say you have a project that should cost $10,000 for quality products and installation. The problem is you don't know this "magical" $10,000 figure. You get estimates for $7,000 $12,000 & $16,000. Let's assume you automatically eliminate the $16,000 estimate. Now you have $7,000 & $12,000. Since the company with the $7,000 price told you the price over the phone and was completely open, you go with them.

Now then it's 10 to 15 years later and the windows have failed, the company is gone, and you need windows again. Why? You can't obtain $10,000 quality for $7,000, never can, never will. Instead you got what someone told you was the equilavent and being a "wise" shopper you saved $5,000 and went with the low bid.

So here you are needing new windows. You won't call the company who was $16,000 the last time because you know they will be outrageous. If you can find the $10,000 deal (you might of found originally) it's now 13~$14,000 or more because of inflation. So let's add this up. You spent $7,000 originally and now you need to spend another $13,000 or so. Total bill.....$20,000 plus.

If you had spent the $12,000 originally what did you lose? $2,000 more than you should have spent. Total cost.....$12,000.

Cost of quality today (10K value)..............$12,000
Cost of not spending enough.....................$7.000 + $13,000 = $20,000+

I can't quite remember the saying but it goes something like this.......

Which is worse spending too much or spending too little? The man who spends too much loses a little money, that is all. The man who spends too little loses everything, because the thing he bought, will not do what he bought it for. Now he has to buy the thing that cost a little more the first time and his time and money have both been wasted.
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

Delaware Mike
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

#49 Post by Delaware Mike »

Tah, you must be reading my mind. That quote is from John Ruskin (1819-1900). I had just stumbled upon it the other day a decided I would simply type it up throw it in my presentation book after some before and after pictures.

It goes just like this: "It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money-that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the job is was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you only deal with the lowes bidder, it may be well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#50 Post by tah »

Yeah that's it...............

Here's another Ruskin quote that would apply here:

There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

homeowner
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 pm

#51 Post by homeowner »

for some reason you guys only focus on the $. it is important to me. that is not what swayed me. i looked for a good window and think i found it. i later found ww offered this window at a reasonable price. many dealers charge more for this window. most of you experts say the install is more important anyway, as long as the window is decent.

look what iceman did on another thread. he likely bought an expensive vinyl window(possibly paid a premium for this window because we all know a consumer might not be able to shop around for a schuco), because he liked it and probably because he followed the simple thought that "if they cost more they are likely to be better/safer". i agree, but still a risk. he is losing right now. hopefully, it will work out. but notice: he said, schuco used the ugly word. subs. but nobody has condemed the chuco dealer. he is not getting response from schuco or the schuco dealer, but again, silence. they tried, what one of the experts on this board warned me to watch out for on my mediocre sheffield windows, that the dealer may try to adjust a sash/frame problem with the screws on the locks. it looks like maybe somewheres up to 32 bad windows and/or a bad install, twice! again, silence from the experts on this board. this is true misfortune and iceman took what looked to be the safest path.

i certainly hope i have a better time of it than he has and i believe i will. but if i have problems...... wouldnt i be in a better position than iceman? even the responders on his thread say its an install error. thats all a mgf has to hear. if he ever gets a call back from the dealer, i woudnt be surprised to hear the dealer has pointed a finger at the window. i was told on this board that it meant a bad window/sash, not install. waddaya gonna do? be one of those who can call ww, champion, sears, home depot, get the drift. i want one person to be responsible for the product and the install!!! ww is simply doing it without raping the consumer the way the others have done. and you all thought hd was your worst nightmare.

one last aside. why the cultlike status of schuco? im sure its nice. never saw one as they are not available in my area. the pictures look
fine, but they appear to be the audi of windows. ive been a porsche nut for many years and audi shares the dealership. for decades those guys constantly praise that car. all i know is it sure kept that service department busy. im not saying anything bad about schucos other than what i read on this and the other board. seems dealers/installers have problems with this company as well. search the sight, the negative adds up. there is a lot that determines value.

gjc
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:42 pm

#52 Post by gjc »

Homeowner,

I agree with you on the point of having a single contract. I had windows installed a few months ago and this worked for me. The company had to make-right whatever was wrong (thankfully, everything went smooth). His company was responsible for the materials and install. It is the “one noose, one neck “scenario.

I am very happy with the windows and I am sure that I will use the same contractor in the future.

eric
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:55 pm

Re: Window World ?

#53 Post by eric »

Come on America, sometimes a new way of doing business hurts doesn't it. I work for window world and can tell you first hand that they are the most up front remodeling company that I have ever worked for and I have worked for most of the big ones here in Michigan. I installed for 15 years. And although I don't anymore. I can tell you that the 35.00 is for a wood dh caulked in no trim. Now, I can do 10 of these by my self in 3 hours. So, If you think that 350.00 for a five hour day (including driving) and all you buy is 5 tubes of caulk (20.00) is bad pay, Then you people must have one hell of a job. And by the way, we do volume so a good installer does 70 windows a week (That's 2,450.00/week un trimmed and a lot more with extras) and we work all year so that's over 125,000.00 for a good installer. Do you think that at 189.00 (that's welded window insulated glass price) that you are really going to pay an installer 70.00 a window? And unless you're a landlord, are you really going to install a 189.00 window in your most valuable investment? And if you think that 325.00 is to much for a solid window 30/30 stimulus qualifying grade. Then call Sears, they'll sell you a simonton that leaks a ton of air for 1,000.00 a hole. Oh, and they do pay a whopping 70.00 a hole (I worked for them) And you install about 5-10 a week. Moral of the story, Be cheap when you buy water. Not when improving your home! And remember, "The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price"

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