Heat Mirror

Ask replacement window questions & get answers!
Message
Author
windowguru
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:28 pm

Heat Mirror

#1 Post by windowguru »

your thoughts? What windows does in work in best? Do you endorse it?

windowmann2000
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

#2 Post by windowmann2000 »

I wrote to Heat Mirror through their site a while back because I was thinking about a line of windows that used them in both double and triple glazed. I remarked in my note that my experience with FourSeasons and Hurd had been a diaster. They quickly responded with it was the other guys fault and their product was improved. Perhaps oberon or fenex can shed some light on the subject technically, I personally had ten bad years with Heat Mirror so why ask for any more aggravation.
Republic uses it and a few others. It would be interesting to talk to them ........let's say in about ten years.

usmarine0352
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:35 pm

#3 Post by usmarine0352 »

I have not seen this, but I heard that b/c heat mirror is a plastic....it sometimes turn yellow after a year or so.

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#4 Post by tah »

I know one thing I can do today with the Internet and it's this. If anyone, and I mean anyone, is having trouble with a product I can find their site (or complaint).

For a LOT of windows I can find homeowners complaining about a lot of different issues. Sometimes it sounds like installation, sometimes the windows themselves, sometimes both.

I simply cannot find a website where folks are complaining about Heat Mirror failure. The most Heat Mirror problems I've ever found are is this forum and the majority of those are "I think I remember hearing" or "I seem to remember someone telling me" and so forth. Not what I'd call "real world" experiences. Some here had bad experiences with different manufacturers who used Heat Mirror several years ago. I'm thinking this was more than likely the manufacturer, not the product.

I'd be niave to believe that in it's infancy there were no Heat Mirror problems. I'm also sure Southwall Technologies has put into place some quality control measures to insure that manufacturers using their product are following proper procedures.

One poster described a "possible" problem of combining glass and film because of the different thermal expansion coefficients. Really now.....how cold does it have to get for glass to contract measureably?
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

windowguru
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:28 pm

#5 Post by windowguru »

I guess the red flag for me is, if it provides such excellent efficiency (as shown in U-factor) then why dont more companies use it?

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#6 Post by tah »

windowguru wrote:I guess the red flag for me is, if it provides such excellent efficiency (as shown in U-factor) then why dont more companies use it?
Why a red flag? Simple answer really...cost!

No one uses 100% Xenon gas. Red flag? Not really, just cost. Good product? Look at the weights below, you bet it would be GREAT in windows. Radon would be even a better insulator, but a horrible idea.

I guess the point I'm making is this. Just because a LOT of people aren't using it does NOT make it bad. On the other hand, just because a product (or element) would work great, does NOT make it a good idea.

Argon Atomic Mass = 39.948
Krypton Atomic Mass = 83.798
Xenon Atomic Mass = 131.293
Radon Atomic Mass = 222.000

In my neck of the woods, most of the companies here don't want to spend an extra 10~20$ to provide a better window. They sure won't step up and spend another 30~40$ (I'm guessing here) for Heat Mirror. This does not mean the products bad.
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

tru_blue
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:02 am

Heat mirror failure

#7 Post by tru_blue »

tah wrote:I simply cannot find a website where folks are complaining about Heat Mirror failure.
I agree with tah that one can find complaints easily on ANY brand of windows by searching on the internet. I'm really surprised however :!: that he can not find any complaints against Heat Mirror. Just do a search on google and you'll find plenty.

The very 1st one I looked at was a major lawsuit from Hurd Windows against Southwall Technologies (maker of Heat Mirror) for $57 million for massive seal failure. Hurd made Heat Mirror the central focus of their advertising for years, slamming their competition and making bold statements like Heat Mirror was making Low E obsolete. Then Hurd had major problems with failure of the Heat Mirror and switched to Low E glass. That had to be pretty humiliating. Cost was not the reason Hurd switched; in fact Heat Mirror is fairly competitively priced.

"Hurd is a manufacturer of installed glass units which incorporate Heat Mirror film. Hurd alleges that various failures and deficiencies associated with the installed glass units give rise to warranty and other consumer claims. Hurd is seeking monetary damages for past and future replacement costs, litigation expenses, and punitive damages. The complaint alleges $32 million in damages and $25 million in restitution. The Company [Southwall] believes Hurd's action to be without merit and intends to strenuously defend against it."

I'm not a fan of airing out other company's dirty laundry, but to claim that there aren't any websites that mention Heat Mirror's shortcomings is as bold a statement as Hurd's previous claims that Heat Mirror was making Low E obsolete.

I do know that Andersen and Marvin looked at Heat Mirror and turned it down, and Pella used it briefly for a year or so in 1992-1993 before discontinuing it. Not sure why though.

Consumers Reports Magazine did a comparison of Heat Mirror and Low E a while back. They calculated heating and cooling costs for one year for a hypothetical north-climate home in Madison, WI. They concluded that both Heat Mirror and Low E were worth getting, but that the Low E saved slightly more money in heating/cooling costs. The cost of upgrading to either Low E or Heat Mirror would eventually pay for themselves.

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

Re: Heat mirror failure

#8 Post by tah »

tru_blue wrote:
tah wrote:I simply cannot find a website where folks are complaining about Heat Mirror failure.
I agree with tah that one can find complaints easily on ANY brand of windows by searching on the internet. I'm really surprised however :!: that he can not find any complaints against Heat Mirror. Just do a search on google and you'll find plenty.

The very 1st one I looked at was a major lawsuit from Hurd Windows against Southwall Technologies

I'm not a fan of airing out other company's dirty laundry, but to claim that there aren't any websites that mention Heat Mirror's shortcomings is as bold a statement as Hurd's previous claims that Heat Mirror was making Low E obsolete.

Consumers Reports Magazine did a comparison of Heat Mirror and Low E a while back. They calculated heating and cooling costs for one year for a hypothetical north-climate home in Madison, WI. They concluded that both Heat Mirror and Low E were worth getting, but that the Low E saved slightly more money in heating/cooling costs. The cost of upgrading to either Low E or Heat Mirror would eventually pay for themselves.
Please tell me the "key words" you enter into Google to find "plenty" of folks complaining about Heat Mirror. I'm looking for ordinary homeowners, not corporate finger pointing.

As for Consumer Reports findings. I put about as much faith in them as I do my dog. Sure they serve a purpose, weed out the worst products. My education consists of an EE degree. When they "review" TV's and stereo equipment I get to see just how compromised you become when trying to be a "jack of all trades" in the consumer arena. They don't know what they're talking about, not even close!

Still, some folks consider them the bible they must consult before buying anything. Not sure how they found Low-e out performing Heat Mirror. Can't find it anywhere in NFRC performance specs. Of course every Heat Mirror window I know of has both it AND low-e. Not sure where Consumer Reports got their window, or their results. Don't really care what they say, but do care about the NFRC and real world data.

I am biased. We sell and install Kensington windows either in Low-e & Argon, or Low-e, Argon/Krypton & Heat Mirror. I installed the Heat Mirror windows in my house. The previous owner had installed Simonton Low-e & Argon and with great pride showed me the before and after winter bills. Gas & Electric total had been reduced in the coldest months from ~$360/month to ~$290/month (BIG house!). After installing Kensington Heat Mirror with Low-e & Argon/Krypton this went down to ~$190/month. Will they last 20, 30 or 50 years? I don't know as my crystal ball is broken. Guess we'll have to use yours, or Consumer Reports.
Last edited by tah on Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

chrisexv6
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:27 pm

#9 Post by chrisexv6 »

I was impressed with all of the information I found on the net about Heat Mirror. Alas it seemed to me very few (if any) residential products were using it.

But then I actually had a salesman come out that was selling Kensington windows with the Heat Mirror film in between the panes. Got the whole sales schpeel.........butter on the window, heat lamp (with BTU meter!), etc. The windows were fairly impressive.

Then came the price. I pretty much laughed the guy out of my kitchen. Its ashame, I really think it was a good product. I ended up with Schucos for about half the cost the Heat Shield 19's were going for.

Which brings me to a possible reason as to why there are not many complaints: how many residential products use Heat Mirror, and of those how many are being sold at a homeowner-affordable price (sure, maybe I got the "you should have bargained with him" price, but boy oh boy, you want to sell a premium window? dont mess with your customer, just lay it all out)? Heat Mirror or not, the Kensingtons were not worth double the price of Schucos. And Id much rather have the 3rd pane of glass than a plastic film (not saying it wont hold up forever, but a thin piece of plastic film is bound to run into issues eventually, no?)

I wonder if there are no/very few complaints because no/very few people actually purchase Heat Mirror-ed windows. Im not holding anything against anyone, its just an honest question.

-Chris

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#10 Post by tah »

chrisexv6 wrote:Then came the price. I pretty much laughed the guy out of my kitchen. Its ashame, I really think it was a good product. I ended up with Schucos for about half the cost the Heat Shield 19's were going for.

Which brings me to a possible reason as to why there are not many complaints: how many residential products use Heat Mirror, and of those how many are being sold at a homeowner-affordable price? Heat Mirror or not, the Kensingtons were not worth double the price of Schucos. And Id much rather have the 3rd pane of glass than a plastic film (not saying it wont hold up forever, but a thin piece of plastic film is bound to run into issues eventually, no?)

I wonder if there are no/very few complaints because no/very few people actually purchase Heat Mirror-ed windows. Im not holding anything against anyone, its just an honest question.

-Chris
Very valid point! Our competitors in this area try to get $1200 to $1400 a window for Heat Mirror. Of course they don't sell many. The manager goes back out and tries to "drop" them to a Low-e & Argon at close to half that price and they still KILL the homeowner.

We sell the HeatMirror for $575 to $695 a window. Our Low-e & Argon windows are about $100 less. If more companies weren't so damn greedy it's my opinion a lot more Heat Mirror windows would be sold.

When we price a big house (say 20 windows) you're looking at +$2000 for Heat Mirror vs Low-e & Argon. Not much for the upgrade and we're still making decent money.

I'm dying to know.....how much did they try to get you to pay for the Kensington Heat Mirrors?

Of course we don't have the butter to pay for.....lol!
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

windowmann2000
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

#11 Post by windowmann2000 »

This is all very interesting to me, because we have been looking at a line of windows that uses Mirror. To be honest we've pretty much given up until we see more of a successfull track record. Heat Mirror was conceived when low-e's were hardcoat and argon was still a big up charge $20.00. Now they seem to be more equal in both cost and efficiency. I wanted to give the nod to Heat Mirror because I'm not sold on the life of triples in vinyl's, and you can than slip in HM without the worry of the added weight. I still haven't made up my mind. The reason is I spent ten years with a dealer who sold Four Season sun rooms and Hurd and Pella windows. Pella dropped them and the amount of seal failures we had with Hurd and the sun rooms was close to ten percent. This was just unreal. We accepted the fact since we had sun rooms and the glass was quite large in so many of them, maybe that had something to do with it. It seemed like the first five years no problems and bang after that. Hurd was the biggest supplier of HM at that point in time. Now I factor in my experience with HM and the fact that none of the major players use it.............makes me wonder, I think I'll have to take a look at the warranty........but my gut says no to HM.

chrisexv6
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:27 pm

#12 Post by chrisexv6 »

tah wrote:
chrisexv6 wrote:Then came the price. I pretty much laughed the guy out of my kitchen. Its ashame, I really think it was a good product. I ended up with Schucos for about half the cost the Heat Shield 19's were going for.

Which brings me to a possible reason as to why there are not many complaints: how many residential products use Heat Mirror, and of those how many are being sold at a homeowner-affordable price? Heat Mirror or not, the Kensingtons were not worth double the price of Schucos. And Id much rather have the 3rd pane of glass than a plastic film (not saying it wont hold up forever, but a thin piece of plastic film is bound to run into issues eventually, no?)

I wonder if there are no/very few complaints because no/very few people actually purchase Heat Mirror-ed windows. Im not holding anything against anyone, its just an honest question.

-Chris
Very valid point! Our competitors in this area try to get $1200 to $1400 a window for Heat Mirror. Of course they don't sell many. The manager goes back out and tries to "drop" them to a Low-e & Argon at close to half that price and they still KILL the homeowner.

We sell the HeatMirror for $575 to $695 a window. Our Low-e & Argon windows are about $100 less. If more companies weren't so damn greedy it's my opinion a lot more Heat Mirror windows would be sold.

When we price a big house (say 20 windows) you're looking at +$2000 for Heat Mirror vs Low-e & Argon. Not much for the upgrade and we're still making decent money.

I'm dying to know.....how much did they try to get you to pay for the Kensington Heat Mirrors?

Of course we don't have the butter to pay for.....lol!
I find it quote ironic that part (a lot, actually) of his sales pitch was "check out Sears and HD pricing........the window starts at xxx and you end up actually paying 2x the price of xxx".

In the end, he was the same price as his example from Sears. I called him on that too "oh well our window is better than Sears" and then pulled out the "extrapolated out to 10 years" energy savings chart.

He came in at $1300.00/window, and I thought Andersen Renewal was expensive! Heat Shield was 2x the price of Renewal. "If I signed today" he knocked 5K off the total, which brought the cost down to $1050.00/window. I still laughed at him. Even with his "guaranteed" energy savings it would take me 20 years to pay them off. And at this point, like a previous poster mentioned, there isnt enough evidence to say that the Heat mirror will last longer than 20 years. Im sure the rest of the windows themselves would have been OK, but for $1050.00/window, I expect proven technology, a salesman not trying to shove things down my throat, a good spacer (TPS or SuperSpacer), and a price that is good for more than 5 minutes.

I ended up paying $800/window for Schucos. But the difference was partially the salesman and mostly the windows. I needed a bunch of sliding windows, and the Heat Shield slider design didnt impress me any more or less than, say, a Certainteed. The Schuco slider is a tank and VERY well designed. The salesman gave me the "this is my lowest price" line. While I dont think he was being 100% truthful, he was about the same price as Renewal and only slightly more than if I used a lower brand and put in casements instead of sliders (to gain more energy efficiency over a "cheap" slider).

-Chris

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#13 Post by tah »

windowmann2000 wrote:Now I factor in my experience with HM and the fact that none of the major players use it....
Do you not consider Kensington a "major" player? Who would be? Just curious, not arguing....
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

tah
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am

#14 Post by tah »

chrisexv6 wrote: He came in at $1300.00/window,
Just what I expected.

Two words: Highway Robbery!

I LOVE selling Heat Mirror at $600~$700. I think it's fair and if I follow people like you had in your home, it's easy too!
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!

chrisexv6
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:27 pm

#15 Post by chrisexv6 »

Yeah, he made it real easy to buy somewhere else that had their windows less than 1300 (which is just about everyone!)

As far as Kensington and "major player": no one in CT even sells them according to what Ive found. The salesman I got worked for a place in Mass. (actually the place that you get linked to from here when you ask for a free online quote). Very easy to find Certainteed around here, and there are a couple local manufacturers, but Ive found it not so easy to find the better brands everyone speaks of here (I actually had to ask *here* abotu how to contact Schuco). Simonton, etc. are tough to find sales/installers.

I dont know if thats how it is elsewhere, but I had never heard of Kensington until they showed up in my house trying to sell them.

-Chris

Post Reply