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 Post subject: Newly installed window dilemma-UPDATE
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:16 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:51 am
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Just an update on the condensation issue regarding me new Softlite replacement windows (see original post on 10/18) : Condensation on glass unit and window frame itself has seemed to resolve itself (hopefully for good). May have been due to a temporary high humidity/sudden temperature drop. The condensation on the interior caulk on all of the windows however has not stopped. Softlite rep came out and pretty much ruled out window as a problem. Still awaiting a response from the "Technical Dept." Installer was out yesterday and tried a couple of different things as an experiment. On one set of windows he pulled out all of the exterior caulk and packed insulation into the gaps and re-caulked. He also packed more insulation on the interior under the window sill board. On the rest of the windows, he just packed insulation under the sills from the inside and on one window, he did nothing. This morning, I checked the windows after last nights low temperature (41 deg. outside, 70 deg. inside, indoor humidity: <50%)). The windows that were fully re-insulted had significantly less condensation on the caulk, while the ones were just sill insulation was done were loaded with condenastion on the caulk just as much as the window were nothing was done. So I investigated futher and removed a section of caulk from the interior sill of one of the windows hoping to find a draft of cold air. What I found was that when the PVC coated coil was wrapped in from the exterior, it comes out from under the window into the interior and was caulked over. The bare coil felt like a cold plate. As soon as I would wipe the condensation off, it would reform. It appears that the cold is being conducted through teh coil into the house. I spoke to the installer and they are coming next week to remove all of the exterior caulk and re-insulate, then they are going to remove the interior caulk, install quarter-round as a thermail break and then re-caulk. The installer said they would use a latex-based caulk on the inside instaed of the silicone they originally used. Any comments on the use of caulk? Does this fix seem like the thing to do? The installer stated that this is the last thing they are willing to do.

Thanks for any help.
Mark


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:10 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Minnesota
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Whats happening is the cold air is not being stopped around your new windows. Obviously the installer took a short cut figuring he could caulk the gap with no insulation. This works if you make sure there is a good half inch of caulk squeezed in the gap. Thats why I make sure to order new windows with at least a quarter inch gap. This way we can use an expansion foam to seal things tightly. If you don't put a thermal break in your going to have issues with condensation. It won't make any difference what kind of caulk you use. You must have them install insulation all around the unit and especially under the unit. The caulk along the bottom is only decorative. Heat will get under your seat board in between the apron gap. So it shoots right under the new unit. We also use a foam rope for insulating around our windows. You can get it from quarter inch to three inches in diameter. This makes a nice barrier to stop the cold. With your installer applying wood stops. This will also add another barrier. I would still make sure you have insulation in the gaps. You may want to remove you interior trim and inspect the gap behind it. This may also need some insulation added. If you have a gap here it's almost worthless to do the other. The cold will come right around the new window. Good Luck!!!


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 Post subject: softlite windows
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm
Posts: 10
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we have some of the same problems as Makman posted Oct.28, 2004. However, no one will help. We have softlite windows that ice up on the inside regardless of what the humidity is inside.
We are looking for others with softlite windows to find out if the company has helped them.


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 Post subject: Reply to Carlson
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:51 am
Posts: 7
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Carlson:

My problem is still occuring but I have done a lot of research and this is what I found:

First, you need to know the indoor humidity level of your home. Depending on the outdoor temp (assuming what we are having here in NJ - 10 deg. F to 30 deg. F), you should have no more than 30-35% relative humidity. You can get a digital temp/humidity guage at Home Depot or Radio Shack. The digital is better and more accurate (I proved it against a sling psychrometer). I had to get a dehumidifier to reduce my humididty and also turn off my furnace humidifier. I also vent all of my exhaust fans (kitchen & bath) to the outside. Today's newer insulated houses are humidity holders and it is hard to get the level below 35% unless it drops naturally outside. You will still have to ventilate. Even if you have an older house with new windows, they will still tend to seal up the house and prevent air exchange.

Even after all of this, I am still getting condensation and was getting very frustrated. However, I did find important information that window coverings (drapes, blinds, etc.) can definately increase condensation on even the best thermally efficient windows. I have inside-mount vinyl blinds on most of the windows and they are mounted up-close to the windows. They apparently are restricting air movement across the glass and are causing the inside glass surfaces and frame to cool to a point where condensation is forming. Info on the Web from a Canadien source recommends that the window treatments be installed away from the glass so that natural air convection can enter the window area from the top, then across the window, and out the bottom. It is important to keep the top open (with valances, etc.) so that air movement can occur. I am going to be trimming out the windows with more wood and changing the window coverings in 1 room as a test to see if the condensation stops. I will post the results. If this does not work, I do not know what else to do and I am just going to resign myself to the fact that I was misled by the installer and by SoftLite. I still feel it is a combination of a poor installation job and lack of support from SoftLite.

With regard to your question, The SoftLite rep came to my house right after I had the windows installed and noticed the problem. In short, he was useless. He basically told me that it was not a window problem, thanked me for my order and left. He said he would discuss the matter with my installer. I asked him for SoftLite's installation instructions for the windows and he said there was none. They left it up to the installer. I asked him about the insulation paks that came with the window and were not installed by my installer and he said some installers use them others don't. Why include them then? He could not answer me. Any way, the installers came back, removed the interior caulk, shoved in some insulation, installed small interior trim mouldings and re-caulked ( I guess to cover their shoddy installation). Keep in mind that my installation was unique. They replaced existing vinyl new construction windows with vinyl replacement windows. They are no recognized right or wrong ways to do this, so basicall I was at the mercy of the installer and I firmly beleive that the installation was poor and cold air is getting in. I have drafty areas and the condensation forms on the glass and moulding that the installed. There is not much more that I can do to reduce indoor humidity and my replacement window project has become a money pit. Once I have exhausted all fixes and if the problem remains, I will then consider legal action against the installer and SoftLite. Maybe a class action? SoftLite or the installer has never followed up with me since.

See if any of the things I mentioned help you. Obviously, we are in the same boat. I do not know waht the answer is with SoftLite. The research I did on them suggested a good product and good company with good customer service. I am know hearing and experiencing horror stories and have doubts. They are obviously only interested in making the sale. I will not recommend them or their products to anyone. By the way, my father had all of his windows replaced in his house by his next door neighbor. The guy used American Crafstman double hung vinyl windows from Home Depot that were a 1/3 of the cost of SoftLite's. My father has an indoor humidity level of about 60% and no drafts or no condensation.

Regards,
Makman


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Massachusetts
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I am a Soft-Lite dealer, and have been for approx. 5 years. We had a sales rep for Soft-Lite visit us several years ago and decided to offer it as a addition to our product lines. After about a year, we had serious problems with orders sent to us missing windows or being damaged in transit etc. we decided to drop them. We were always impressed with the quality of the window, but we had a hard time getting straight answers from them.
The owner, Roy, in the meantime told us they were having growing pains. A short time later they built a huge manufacturing facility and hired only the best in the business to help improve their problems. Their sales rep contacted us again and a asked for a second look. They brought us all out to see their new facility and their new packing system (to reduce damaged windows in transit. They were also one of the 1st (or so I am told) vinyl window companies in the U.S. to purchase one of the machines that tell you the quantity of argon/krypton fill in their insulated glass units.
I understand all this does not make a window company, however I urge you to contact them again and see what is going on. They are a world class company that has an owner that will be more than willing to correct the problem if it is there fault. Can you give me more info on which line you purchased, glass package, foam filled or not, etc. and maybe I can help you? Also who is your dealer?
Please understand, there is only so much the supplier can do. It very well could be an installation issue- there is little they can do there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm
Posts: 10
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We had 6 slide windows, 2 bays and one garden window installed in July of 2003. We live in Wisconsin. The first cold snap produced the same condensation problem that you have. The second cold snap with temperatures in the low teens and single digits produced ice. We attempted to contact our installer who said open a window and let in fresh air. After numerous attempts to contact softlite and the installer, we filed a complaint with the BBB and I continued to e-mail my way up the corporate ladder. We finally received a reply from the sales rep, named Rick Cole. He claimed he drove by the house and the windows looked good. We again filed a complaint in Ohio and Wisconsin against softlite and the installer. The installer and Mr. Cole came to our home, after the temp had risen to the 30's. They insisted that humidity was the problem but could not explain why the windows were cold. I also pointed out that the neighbor has a hot tub in their home and does not have a problem with their windows. After a heated discussion, they agreed to try a triple pain with kryton in one window. That was the last time we heard from Mr. Cole. The next call we received was from the installer who wanted to charge us another $1000 to replace all the glass in the slide windows but claimed they could not do anything about the bays or the garden window. Both the installer and Rick Cole claimed that garden windows should not be installed in Wisconsin even if their brochure claims they can. We have heard all the bull about humidity, plants, animals, sleeping with your mouth open, etc. After we asked four other window companies to come in and give us bids to replace softlite windows we found out that the problem appears to be the metal piece in the window conducting the cold. We have found another person with the exact same problem we are having in the same neighborhood. He had the triple windows installed with kypton and guess what. They are just as bad. We are now heating with a wood furnance and the humidity has gone below 20% and has not solved the problem. At this point, we have retained an attorney and am waiting for another cold snap so that we can bring in an engineer for an evaluation on the construction of these windows. We think a class action suit is a good idea. The neighbor also thinks this is a good idea. Where do you live and do you know of others with the same problem?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:53 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Posts: 506
Location: Minnesota
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Makman & Carlson, I find it very hard to believe it's the window that causes all your problems. I have heard all the BS stories from companies and installers that you have and I've told. So far I have made wagers with numerous window manufacturer's that I can resolve the problem of sweating windows here in MN. The wager is I go out to the customer and make it go away. If it doesn't I do it for free. If it does they pay all my expenses times two. I've never lost a bet yet!!! Now by living here in MN I know cold weather. When the high for the day is below zero. That just means we're going Ice Fishing instead of window hanging. Bottom line is Soft-Lite sends the insulation packs for a reason. TO USE!!! If your windows don't have the insulation around them they will sweat like under your arm. All it takes is a half inch break in the insulation to let the cold in. The insulation must be tucked in past the thermal break to work properly. If it's not pushed up to the nail fin or the exterior stop it will come in around the jamb extension or screw holes. That's why we use the Great Stuff expansion foam in the light blue can. We foam everywhere and it expands to fill any gaps we can't see. Bay and Bow windows must have insulated seat and head boards. The cold will penetrate right through them. Carlson in WI I'm tempted to prove my point for free to you if your close enough for me to drive to. I'll even talk to your salesman from Soft-Lite and pitch my wager to him. You'll have nice windows and he'll be coughing up a big chunk of change!! Folks there is one thing to remember from all this 95% of these issues are related to the installation of the window. I have houses in Northern MN that have Home Depots American Craftsman off the shelf junk window installed. Not a bit of sweat on them ever!! If these windows can do it any thing can!!! Get an attorney and go after the installer. He's more then likely your culprit unless your homes have serious air infiltration issues somewhere else. If you really want to know where your home is leaking. Find someone with a Air Infiltration Door Blower. They can test your home and tell you right where they are leaking. Makman I think you can get this done in NJ for free. Well worth the time and effort to do this. Good Luck!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm
Posts: 10
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Thank you for your reply. We wish we had had an installer that took the interest you appear to have in making the customer happy. However, we know that the installer, United Aluminum, used form installation around the windows because we saw him fill top and sides, bottom?
The issue is that United Aluminum would not come out to look at the bottom. All we received were remedies over the phone. He also insisted that the problem was not caused by the installation. We discussed the glass issue with both the installer and the sales rep. The installer admitted that he should have put in triple panes as we orginally requested. The glass at any time during the winter, is so cold that you can not sit in front of the window and all my plants that are too close to the glass have died on one side. We have silver lite low E glass rated R4 double pane. We used a temperature gun at the last cold snap and had a reading of 26 to 29 degrees at the bottom and sides of the windows. Do you think it is the glass or the seals that are leaking. We held a candle next to the window and the flame did not flicker so we assume that there are no drafts. We are waiting for the next cold snap so that we can get an engineer in here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Massachusetts
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I would be lying if I told you we never have problems with our Soft-Lite windows. We have been in business since 1959 (under the same company name) and have seen probably 3-4 dozen manufacturers pitch us on their windows, and have been dealers of probably a dozen manufacturers over the last 15-20 years. I will tell you we have had tremendous success with Soft-Lite. Keep in mind they have a few different models of windows and each model is available with double pane, triple pane, Heat Mirror, air filled, argon filled, krypton filled, aluminum spacers, steel spacers, super spacers, welded, mechanical etc.
You can buy the Cadillac of all windows, but as the windo pros on this board have always said "a quality installation is key".
I suggest you call Roy Anderson (the president of Soft-Lite) with your problems. If you cannot get any help let me know and I will see what I can do for you. Soft-Lite may think it was improperly installed but is protecting the dealer- I am not sure.
By the way I am in the Boston area.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm
Posts: 10
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Thank you for being honest. We did write a letter to the president and never received a reply. After we filed a second time with the BBB of OH,We finally had a response from, from Patrick Thompson, VP Business Development for softlite.
In response he stated that they offered to replace the glass below his cost to a dealer. As previously mentioned, the installer wanted another $1000 for the triple pane but would not replace the glass in the bays and wanted to give us $750 for the garden window, which cost us a great deal more than that. The VP claimed that the real issue was the humidity because his sales rep told him we had 54% humidity in the home but never put in any type of meter to read the humidity. Our humidistat was at 30% at the time of his visit.
Why would we throw away more money and still have the same problems? I believe we have attempted to resolve this issue without taking legal action over the course of 1 1/2 yrs. We have now had enough from the installer and softlite. As you can see from the above letters from Makman and from others that we have talked to, we are not the only ones with the exact same problem.


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 Post subject: reply to carlson
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:23 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:51 am
Posts: 7
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I'm not sure triple pane is going to help you. My windows are triple pane, low-e, argon-filled, Super Spacer with foam filled frames and I get the condensation just as bad as everyone else. The only reason that I got triple pane was due to a "special promo" from the installer. I had all intention of buying double-pane (at least here in NJ). One thing I can tell you is that triple pane windows are heavy and take extra effort to raise and lower even with SoftLite's constant balance system. Softlite's advertisement along with the installers BS leads us to believe that the more energy-efficient the window (triple pane, etc.) the condensation will be eliminated. That is obviously the case as we can see it does nothing to eliminate it. Search on this forum (and the old forum) for triple pane and read the pros and cons and then make an informed decision about if it is worth it or not. As far as the condensation, there are a lot of factors that cause and effect it. Just do a Yahoo search on "window condensation" and read to your hearts content. But by far, poor installation, I believe, is the major culprit. The other factors are secondary and probably just worsen the condition. Regardless, SoftLite windows are exclusive to certain dealers and I strongly feel that they should jump in with problems regarding installation and not pawn it off as the installers problem. That is where the breakdown occurs. Maybe we should forward this forum thread to someone at SoftLite. Anyone have an e-mail address? By the way, there was a previous post on the old board I believe from someone else who had a SoftLite condensation/icing problem. I do not think he got satisfaction either. We should do a search on the old forum and see if we can get an update from him. With regards to my problems, I am documenting everything (notes, videos, photos, etc.) and am going to hit the installer and SoftLite with the evidence probably in March. That gives me time to compile sufficient ammo and to talk to a lawyer. If the installer decides to come back, I want the work done when the weather breaks since I am going to demand that all of the windows be pulled out and re-installed properly and to my satisfaction. Let's all keep in touch via this forum.

Happy New Year!
Makman


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:46 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Massachusetts
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Let me know if I can be of any help.
Keep in mind, most manufacturers have some type of claim saying that condensation on a window does not necessarily mean it is a defect in the window.
Also, to my knowledge (and I could be wrong) Soft-Lite will sell to any contractor that is with in their territory. That is one negative to dealing with some of these companies- the manufacturer has no control over who installs them. That is one thing I like about companies like Schuco. They apparently train their dealers on the way "they" want them installed. I would love to be able to get a Schuco franchise.
That being said, I will take a double pain, air filled, basic window that was properly installed than the best window out there that was installed incorrectly.
For those of you that have weight well pockets on each side of your windows, I will tell you 99% (no lie) of the windows done have significant air pockets that were missed. The only way to get the entire cavity is to foam it, blow it in with an insulation machine or enlarge the opening in the buck frame.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:29 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Posts: 1488
Location: Northern Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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Good post M.W.G.
I don't think anyone has really commented for a long time on the different methods of weight pocket insulation and the uselessness of trying to stuff insulation in.
I have seen companies my whole career include insulating of the weight pockets at no charge, then they send the installers out with fiberglass insulation to stuff up through the weight box access holes during the window install process. It doesn't work at all and it just gives an illusion of them being properly insulated.
We don't do it this way at all. It's a waste of time and material. If someone wants the weight boxes insulated, they are charged for it and it is done properly by us bringing out an insulation blower, drilling holes from the outside and blowiing them full.
I tried foam 2 times over the last 30 years. The first time the nozzle blew off the end of the hose and I ended up giving the people a brand new bathroom. The second attempt was 15 years later and the foam leaked out the gap at the exterior sill and ruined the brand new steel siding they just had installed the week before. My new motto.........Cellulose rules!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:39 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm
Posts: 10
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Makman
Have you filed with the BBB in OH and in your State? I did have some luck with a Steve Cespedes from Softlite from customer service. Here's his e-mail address
<scespedes@soft-lite.com>
We already have an atty.


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 Post subject: NEWLY INSTALLED WINDOW DILEMMA-UPDATE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:30 am
Posts: 3
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MAKMAN, YOU DON'T NEED TO CHECK THE OLD FORUM FOR THE DISSATISFIED SOFTLITE CUST. IT WAS AND STILL IS ME. I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH CARLSON PRIOR TO THIS FORUM AND HAVE BEEN READING ABOUT YOUR DILEMMA. HERE'S MINE, I'M SURE YOU'LL FIND SOME SIMILARITIES. IT ALL STARTED IN OCT 2003 WHEN WE HAD OUR WOOD FRAME, SINGLE PANE WINDOWS REPLACED WITH DOUBLE PANE, LOW-E, ARGON FILLED, VIRGIN VINYL, PPG INTERCEPT SPACER, SOFTLITE WINDOWS INSTALLED BY A COMPANY REFERRED TO US BY A NEIGHBOR CALLED AFFORDABLE WINDOW AND DOOR. THE INSTALLER STATED THESE WERE THEIR "TOP OF THE LINE" AND SHOULD SEE A DRASTIC IMPROVEMENT IN OUR UTILITY BILLS. THE HONEYMOON WAS OVER BY JANUARY WHEN WE AWOKE ONE MORNING AND FOUND ICE AS THICK AS MY THUMB ON THE BOTTOM LIP OF THE WINDOW AND GOING UP APOUT 3-4 INCHES. I IMMEDIATELY CALLED THE INSTALLER WHO STATED THAT THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE AND THAT IN ALL HER YEARS (LATER FOUND OUT IT WAS ONLY TWO) THAT SHE HAD NEVER HEARD OF THAT HAPPENING. SHE CONTACTED THE SOFTLITE REP, A REAL PIECE OF WORK NAMED RICK, WHO CALLED AND TOLD ME AGAIN THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE BUT DECIDED TO "HUMOR" ME AND COME THE FOLLOWING DAY. OVER 24 HRS LATER, HE SHOWED UP AND LOOKED AT MY WINDOWS AND AS HE WAS CHIPPING ICE OFF THE WINDOWS WITH HIS CAR KEYS, STATED THAT THE WINDOWS WERE PERFORMING AS THEY SHOULD AND THAT, OF COURSE, IT WAS MY FAULT FOR HAVING TOO MUCH HUMIDITY IN MY HOUSE. I ASKED THAT IF THAT WAS THE CASE, WOULD'NT THE KITCHEN WINDOW (ABOVE THE SINK AND DISHWASHER) BE THE WORST? BECAUSE THE MOST EXTREME CASE WAS IN THE BEDROOM HE STATED THAT BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE SLEEP WITH THEIR MOUTH OPEN, THEY EXHAUST ALOT OF MOISTURE INTO THE AIR?!? HIS SUGGESTIONS WERE TO TURN UP THE FURNACE, OPEN ALL WINDOWS AND DOORS IN THE HOUSE FOR 20 MIN EACH DAY (IN SUB ZERO TEMP?) RUN A DEHUMIDIFIER IN THE BEDROOM, AND BASICALLY CHANGE OUR LIFESTYLE AROUND TO SUIT THE WINDOWS. WHEN I SHOWED HIM THE SCIENCE EXPERIMENT GROWING IN-BETWEEN THE PANES OF GLASS (MOLD), HE STATED THAT IN TIME IT SHOULD GO AWAY. THIS WAS THE FIRST OF MANY HEADACHES DEALING WITH THIS COMPANY. I WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP TO ROY ANDERSON AND EVENTUALLY THEY REPLACED THE ORIGINAL WINDOWS AFTER SHOWING HIM ONE OF THEIR BROCHURES OF A ICE COVERED WINDOW INDICATING WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A COMPANY USES INFERIOR PRODUCTS, AND THE PICTURES OF MY WINDOWS. MINE WERE WORSE BY THE WAY. SO HERE I AM WITH THEIR BEST WINDOW, WITH ICE ON IT. BEFORE ANYONE WRITES TO ASK ME ABOUT MY HUMIDITY, JUST SO YOU KNOW, I'VE READ ENOUGH ABOUT THE SUBECT TO SCHOOL JUST ABOUT ANYONE ON IT AND YES, I KEEP TRACK OF IT AND AM WELL WITHIN RANGE. WE'RE MISERABLE WITH DRY SKIN AND DRY NOSES AND STATIC SHOCK AND STILL HAVE CONDENSATION AND ICE. I HAVE TONS OF INFO ON HOW MY HEATING BILLS WENT UP AFTER THEIR WINDOWS WERE INSTALLED, NOT FROM PRICE INCREASES BUT FROM THERMS USED AND CAN PROVE AVG DAILY TEMPS WERE HIGHER. I STILL HAVE MY PICTURES. ALL THE PAPERWORK ON HUMIDITY AND CASE STUDIES FROM UNIVERSITIES. I THINK A LAWSUIT IS THE WAY TO GO. ASK YOUR NEIGHBORS WHAT THEIR HUMIDITY IS AND SEE IF THEY HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS OR AT LEAST AS BAD. HUMIDITY IS NOT THE PROBLEM, THE CONDENSATION AND ICE IS ON THE WINDOW BECAUSE THE WINDOW IS COLD. ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE, I'M MORE THAN HAPPY TO ASSIST IN ANY WAY I CAN.


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