Newly installed window dilemma-UPDATE

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FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#16 Post by FenEx »

WOW!!! What a horrible experience. You are correct that what your rep told you is a bunch of crap. Sounds like a class action suit in the making. I am available and qualified for expert testimony. FenEx@optonline.net.

Cheryl
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:20 am
Location: Michigan

#17 Post by Cheryl »

Continuously learning from this site, so can someone tell me what the "weight pocket" of the window is? Thanks

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#18 Post by FenEx »

The weight pocket is the space between the studs on each side of the old windows that allowed for the old sash weights that held up the old double-hung windows by rope or chain. These should be insulated but even an uninsulated exterior wall cavity is about 6 times more insulated than a single pane window.

Mass. window guy
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Location: Massachusetts

#19 Post by Mass. window guy »

" IT ALL STARTED IN OCT 2003 WHEN WE HAD OUR WOOD FRAME, SINGLE PANE WINDOWS REPLACED WITH DOUBLE PANE, LOW-E, ARGON FILLED, VIRGIN VINYL, PPG INTERCEPT SPACER, SOFTLITE WINDOWS INSTALLED BY A COMPANY REFERRED TO US BY A NEIGHBOR CALLED AFFORDABLE WINDOW AND DOOR. THE INSTALLER STATED THESE WERE THEIR "TOP OF THE LINE" AND SHOULD SEE A DRASTIC IMPROVEMENT IN OUR UTILITY BILLS."

First of all your contractor significantly overstated the efficiency of that window. It is not "top of the line". Low E/Argon is average in todays market. I would agree with them that it is a nice looking and strong window with nice features. It angers me when contractors overstate their window ratings.
I wish all of you good luck with your window issues. I really would be surprised if the problem could be pinpointed to a quality issue with the window- I am thinking something else is going on such as improper install, but we will have to wait and see.
Please keep us informed...I have special interest in this as Soft-Lite is one of our product lines (although I sell their true "top of the line"). This is one of the problems with companies that produce different models- it makes no sense to me to offer an economy line window. If this turns out to be the window, they have tarnished their reputation. They should be concentrating on their best window which gets accolades from my customers all the time.

ffengine23
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:30 am

#20 Post by ffengine23 »

Since your in the window business, is it customary to have your dealers selling different levels of windows? What I mean by that is my dealer stated that she was the only one authorized in Wisconsin to sell the Softlite line. After my problems started I went to an annual Home Show that was in town and lo and behold I found other dealers selling Softlite. The difference was that they were selling windows with super spacer, not a PPG spacer. I have the super spacer now, and the problems are not as extreme but they are still there. It bothers me that people I know, that bought their windows from Home Depot or another hardware store rather cheaply do not have these problems. Their humidity is higher than mine, by far. Also, the one window that wasn't replaced with a Softlite window was our picture window. We replaced that with a Preservation window in Sept. Due to a few shipping errors on the casement, we had a cracked window and it was not completely resolved until recently. The gas was out, the seal was compromised, and I still had no condensation, frost, or ice on that window. But the Softlites did. Seeing is believing. You seem like a decent guy that cares about the customer, but this company is doing nothing but giving lame excuses and protecting even lamer sales reps. I do hope that you will continue to have good luck with them, because when you don't, I seriously doubt this company is going to back you up.

Makman
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:51 am

#21 Post by Makman »

The response to this thread has been remarkable. Glad to see your still around ffengine23. I do remember your post. I see we are all getting the same BS from SoftLite and the installers. As far as my SoftLite windows, they are the "Designer" Series which supposedly are only sold to 2 installers here in NJ. When I started questionning the quality of the windows when the SoftLite Rep was at my house, he became very defensive and protective of "his" windows. I also had every humidity excuse given to me by SoftLite & the installer, but I have not heard of the breathing with mouths open one. That is unbelievable and so stupid it is, I hate to say, funny. It just shows how ignorant people are. I do however agree with ffengine23 and after spending $5700 to have my windows replaced I am not going to change my lifestyle to suit the windows. My house is friggin dry now and my kids skin and noses are dry and we have static. But the windows still sweat, and I have the same question regarding the kitchen window, it sweats the least. Like I said before, my father has HD replacements installed by his neighbor (not a Pro job), runs 60% humidity in his house (forced hot-air gas furnace w/humidifier) and has NO condensation and the window frames are warm and ther are NO drafts.
If I can add a little, I am an engineer with my local natural gas utility and I have a lot of resources available to me. I design and manage gas main installation and replacement projects and I normally don't get involved with the mechanical end of natural gas (home heating, etc.). I will however be using some of the resources (infrared heat guns, etc.) to collect data at my house throughout the winter and early spring so I can build my case against SoftLite & the installer. I even purchased a sling psychrometer on Ebay. I want as much proof as possible so that there can be no doubt.
Lastly, does anyone have any thought on the window covering (blinds, drapes, etc.) issues I mentioned previously? Do the type and way window coverings are installed influence condensation and actually make low humidity levels form condensation? The info I have read makes scientific sense. For those who are having condensation problems, what is your individual window covering situation and does the condensation occur on windows that have no window coverings or the coverings are left open? I am curious.
I think the case is building and I'm sure there are more out there. Maybe a class action is the way to go. Just not sure how the even initiate it considering it is the same manufacturer but different installers. Maybe a slew of individual suits is better. Will cross that bridge later. Keep in touch all.

Makman

carlson
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm

#22 Post by carlson »

to our Wisconsin friend, we like your sense of humor considering how long you have had this problem. Were you able to reach our attorney? Maybe we need to consider a class action suit. Is anyone else interested?

earwax
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:52 am
Location: West Coast

#23 Post by earwax »

I have been reading this string for a while now. I have been in window manufacturing since before I graduated college. I have done service work, sales work, and all things in between. I have been through the AAMA certification for installations and taken a few diffeerent manufacturer's courses. I feel I see things from both the manufacturer's point and the consumer's point. What it sounds like to me is not a window problem. You may have been oversold (not told whole truth) by the salesmen, not treated well by the salesmen who contacted you, but that does not make the design or the product bad, just the company.

What my vision of this problem is, the window is most likly fine. (does it have cracked welds, bad seals on the IG, bad wetherstipping or a bad glass set?) If you do not have one of these problems, you probably do not have a case against the manufacturer. An attorney will gladdly take your case and go after the deep pockets. But you might be wasting everyone's time and money.

The reality is most likely, a bad install. Something is wrong, yes. But, if the basics of the windows, mentioned above, are within spec, you should not see the problem with a good install. Look at the install again. There is something wrong there, I would bet on it.

Mass. window guy
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Location: Massachusetts

#24 Post by Mass. window guy »

yes, it is common for a contractor to offer more than one grade of window. My issue is with the way they market their windows. Many of them mislead their customers with the window specifications by only telling you the pro's of their windows and avoiding the cons such as limitations on warranty, spacers, u-values etc.
For those of you who don't know much about the manufacturing end of the window, you might be surprised how low tech of a method is used to make the insulated glass units. I have to wonder how many of the alleged gas filled units are shipped out with a low fill rate. A rack of i.g. units is rolled up to a "filling station" where someone simply takes dozens of tiny diameter hoses connected to a metal tank and connects the hoses to the holes in the i.g. unit. They set a timer and when the timer goes off the employee pulls tghe hoses and caps the hole.
I have noticed many manufactures now call their windows "argon enhanced" not "argon filled". I am not sure if it is because they are afraid to get caught not having a window with a high gas fill. Even if there is a little gas in the unit it could still be called "enhanced" even though there is not enough in there to significantly increase r-value.
As for "how the drapes and curtains affect the condensation levels", that is out of my league. I cannot help you there.

Cheryl
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:20 am
Location: Michigan

#25 Post by Cheryl »

Thanks Fen Ex!

carlson
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm

#26 Post by carlson »

Makman
We would like to reply to the question on window coverings. We had $11,000 windows installed complete with etching. We thought that they looked beautiful and decided not to cover them with drapes, etc. However, the first cold snap came and we then we had etching surrounded with a two inch frame of ice. We also tried insulated drapes in the bedroom. Yes, it kept some of the cold out but did not prevent the ice from forming. We have found that the only thing that works is covering the outside of our Softlite Silver Lite low-E Glass with plastic. Now we get ice on the inside of the plastic and when the temperature is at 0 or below we get condensation on the glass.
I looked up class action suits and feel that would not be the best way to go for a number of reasons. We agree that individual suits would probably be better. Good luck with yours.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#27 Post by Guy »

I have never in my years in the industry ever heard these many issues on the same product. I feel bad for all of you and really hope you find an answer. To the two homeowners in WI I would love to come out and visit your homes if you are anywhere near the West side of the state. Not as anything other than a curious individual. I just can't imagine this kind of thing happening at all! There just seems to be more there than meets the eye! I would love to come out with my son and remove a window and then re-install it. We could video tape the removal and installation of the unit at no cost to anyone other than myself. This just boggles my mind!! If one of you are up for it and feel comfortable enough I hold out the offer at no expense to you or the manufacturer!

As for the window covering question. Coming from an installer and homeowner I can definitely tell you the window coverings do make a difference. I have top of the line Andersen windows in our bedroom that are only four years old. They are awning windows above our bed. The windows have an interior pull down shade to darken the room and a retractable two inch slatted louver blind to cover that. If I pull the shade and the blinds down in the evening. The window will ice a bit on the bottom corners during a cold subzero night. If I leave the shade up and the blinds drawn I get enough circulation through the slats to keep the window clear. So it does make a difference even for a big old mouth breathing buffalo as myself. I guess those salesman think you shouldn't breath while sleeping. I'll have to try that and see how well I sleep! I'd think my wife would find me quite the crabby bastard the next morning. We must all remember to change our life styles around new things we add to our homes. WOW!!! (jk on the last remark). This is a good post!! Lots of info to consume!!!

carlson
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:39 pm

#28 Post by carlson »

Thank you for the offer. We live on the south west side of Milwaukee. We are both employed during the day but maybe our other Wisconsinite could be interested in your offer. We don't want to inconvience you by asking you to come for a week end.
thanks again.

Mass. window guy
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Location: Massachusetts

#29 Post by Mass. window guy »

with all due respect, I think you are crazy not to take him up on his offer.
He is willing to come out and see you FREE OF CHARGE to attempt to fix your problem. I don't know what his time is worth, but I am guessing between the drive time and time to fix troubleshoot a window install will be 1/2 day which on average costs him $500. You are considering a lawsuit against a manufacturer that I assume will require you to hire an attorney that will cost you (I am guessing) more than a lost day of pay if you take the day off. Everyone in this forum has suggested it is more likely the install than the window. If you have him go out it will do one of two things:
1.) help solidify your case against Soft-Lite if he in fact substantiates the windows were installed improperly
-or-
2.) decide that it was installation error which will save you the time, aggravation and financial commitment required for a lawsuit.

I do not mean to sound harsh. I am not trying to cover for the manufacturer. I am only trying to save you from disappointment.
I still maintain it was not the window.

Biggy Two
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Milw. WI

#30 Post by Biggy Two »

I have been following this post closely, as we had Softlite windows put in this summer (by United Aluminum - the same company that was referenced in this post - as we live in the Milwaukee area too) and we only had a slight condensation problem earlier this season. It was a lot less than our original old wood windows and the problem seems to have disappeared now (humidity in the house is now ~ 38%, using a Radio Shack unit and the Kitchen is at 46% with no signs of condensation). Our old windows would even sometimes have ice on the inside of the windows in a few rooms. During our recent cold spell of -9 F or so, the new windows did not exhibit this problem - just slight condesation near the bottom of the window.

As a home owner with no window installation knowledge, I must say I am impressed by the foam filled, low E, super spacer Imperial windows that United put in and their performance to date and the quality of their installation. George (of United Aluminum) also gave us a list of his customers and those we called had no problems with their windows either. In fact, after the windows were put in, we had a bay window installed and have had no condensation problems on that one either.

So I am puzzled, we have a brick exterior. Does that make a difference?
Or, does the fact that we have horizontal blinds and then curtains over the blinds make a difference? One would think there would be a lot more posts of the Soflite / condensation problems if it was a window quality issue. Or does the temperature of the house during the day and night make a difference?

Steve S. (Biggy Two)

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