Replacement Windows or New Storm Windows -- HELP!!

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dafreak
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:10 am

#31 Post by dafreak »

Thanks windowrep, good luck to you as well. It has been fun!

Oh, and one more thing for you too, are you saying an extra .15 in U value is worth and extra $600 per opening?

dafreak
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:10 am

#32 Post by dafreak »

One more thing. Your customers might appreciate it if you did recommend storm windows (in certain cases) instead of full replacements. Just a thought that might bring you more business.

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

Reply

#33 Post by FenEx »


rippowam
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:30 am

Re: Reply

#34 Post by rippowam »

8 pages of tech info from 7 years ago?

Why not tell us what your conclusions are supposed to be?

homeowner
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 pm

#35 Post by homeowner »

storm windows are the dumbest idea that ever happened. my parents put storm windows on our home when i was 13. my brother was 15. we both immediately knew they were stupid. that was about the last time anyone opened a window at our house. i later bought that house. the first thing i did was cut that stupid plastic off the couch my mother never sat on. it was years later that i finally got those dopey storms off. have you ever tried to clean these windows? do you like opening your window and then open your window? have you considered putting another layer of storms to protect and make storm set 1 last longer? one double pane window is much smarter. btw, storms would be a deal breaker for me. i would NEVER consider buying a home with storm windows unless the discount was very large. just my opinion, but its really impossible to justify s windows. they were simply a bad idea that died out.

ps i love my windows and these new designs. i would encourage all to buy. my neighbor just got replacement windows and only got single hung. what a shame, love this tilt/clean stuff.

dafreak
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:10 am

#36 Post by dafreak »

Homeowner, I see the lack of fresh air as a teenager has really affected you.....

Thanks for the laugh...

:lol:

windowrep
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:54 am
Location: ne ohio

#37 Post by windowrep »

homeowner, i can not believe i am going to say this but here goes, i agree with your post. see all things are possible. keep enjoying your new windows, and hopefully someday everyone will join us in the 21st century.

dafreak, i like you because you always try to get the last word in. like myself. that being said, get rid of the andersen 400 window and move into something around a .30 for $500-$600 an opening total.

dafreak
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:10 am

#38 Post by dafreak »

windowrep, I do have a window that I am going to need to replace. I have received quotes from Loewen, Eagle, Pella and Anderson. All but Pella were tearouts. Pella was the highest with the others in the same ballpark. I really dont want an Anderson though and I have read some bad things about Loewen. I like the Eagle and I am thinking of having Marvin out for a visit so I will probably get either the Eagles or the Marvin. Pella can be had from Lowes for half the price of my local dealer.

rippowam
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:30 am

#39 Post by rippowam »

I guess I don't see what the big deal is about storms. My then future wife had storms on her old house and didn't want new windows because it would've affected the historical nature of the originals.

So, I guess we're geniuses. We put the storms on in the winter and took them off in March or April. Took us all of an hour to do this and we then cleaned the outside of the permanent windows.

As I've said, we are now buying new Sheffields for our newer house for three reasons. The old cheap aluminums are falling apart, they're ugly and not at all energy efficient. I'm not opposed to buying new windows, but to pretend that there aren't circumstances where an investment of $10K+ is not necessary is simply biased. Maybe, just maybe, you sell windows.

tru_blue
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:02 am

Storm Windows

#40 Post by tru_blue »

Wow, I'm gone a few days and come back to three pages worth of messages about storm windows. LOL storm windows. For what it's worth here's my thoughts, organized into PROS, CONS, and CLOSING COMMENTS:

CONS FOR BUYING STORM WINDOWS (I'll do "Pros" after)
1. More maintenance. You have the two sides of the top storm sash and two sides of the storm bottom sash to clean (assuming a storm/screen DH combination), and it's not as easy to tilt in for cleaning as a prime replacement window would be. (However, it would be far easier than a fixed wood storm). Also the existing prime windows, since they would not be replaced, would still require maintenence (possibly painting, washing both sides in a non-tilt unit, etc.).
2. A storm window coupled with single glazed existing windows are NOT as energy efficient as replacement double or triple glazed windows. However, for many (and I especially liked Oberon's post regarding restoring windows) this is not the issue. Energy efficiency may not be the prime consideration. Aesthetics or historical authenticity may be the issue. Old-world charm. Or even price. If it is 0° F outside and 70° F inside, a single glazed window with a storm is approx. 45° roomside glass temperature. Clear IG is 44°-45°, Low E/Argon IG is about 57°, and triple glazed typically 60°-62° (all center-of-glass temperatures). Aside from glass temperatures, new replacement windows would presumably be a heck of a lot more airtight than the old existing windows. Furthermore, the old windows may not be insulated around the perimeter rough opening in the wall cavity, whereas new replacement windows could be insulated in that cavity at the time of installation.
3. Also related to the energy-efficiency issue, new windows would allow for a more comfortable living environment. By replacing the entire window with energy-efficient glass it would feel less cold in front of the windows in the winter, and depending on the glass selection it would not feel uncomfortably HOT in front of the windows during the summer. I know of many who can't sit by their windows when the sun is shining on them during the summer because they'll roast. Believe it or not there are glass systems that allow you to sit in front of your windows during the summer and still feel comfortable.
4. For resale, people will be more inclined to buy, or to spend more, for a typical home with modern, low-maintenance windows than they would for higher-maintenance windows with storms. There's more to a home than the windows of course, but every part contributes. Again, that might not be an issue to some.
5. Storm windows can trap moisture and lead to condensation issues. (Crankthisout did a great job of pointing this out in an earlier post). Ideally one would want the inside windows to be as airtight as possible to prevent moisture/water vapor from leaking around the windows, and the storm windows are NOT supposed to be airtight; they're supposed to be drafty to allow moisture to escape. If the storms are caulked shut, or simply too airtight, the moisture that's trying to get out of the home that does get past the inside windows can potentially stop at the storms and turn to condensation. The solution for this is to open the storms a bit, perhaps 1/8" to 1/4", to allow them to breathe like they're supposed to. I wish I had a nickel for every storm that I've seen caulked shut.
6. Some storms are ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so this too is a relative issue. Storm windows usually are made of vinyl, wood, or aluminum. I've never been a fan of vinyl storms, long story. Wood storms, whether the old-fashioned fixed storms or a storm/screen combination, on some homes look the best, since they can be painted to color-match the home, but need constant maintenance. Also, wood combinations can contribute to premature failure of the window system - here's why: as rainwater passes through the screen of a storm/screen combination, it needs to drain/weep through the bottom or else water will accumulate and rot the bottom rail of the storm and the sill of the prime window unit. Aluminum and vinyl storms have weep holes at the bottom (DON'T caulk them shut). Wood does not. Bad idea. I've seen some brands of wood storms that include a T-shaped aluminum shim on the bottom of their storms, so that the storm is elevated about 1/16" from the sill to allow for weeping. Good design. Unfortunately, everyone throws the shims away, and some actually caulk the storm to the sill. Not good. Aluminum storms would be my recommendation, if I were to recommend a storm at all. But there may be an ugliness factor - they may not be made in the right color to match the prime windows or trim. Aluminum is not a good insulator, but for a storm that's ok. The idea with a storm is to create a windbreaker, and an air pocket (although an airpocket than can breathe a bit). A storm, IMO, is not supposed to be the main insulator; that's the inside window's job.
7. New replacement windows would be quieter, would potentially operate easier, would be able to be washed quickly from the inside, would not (potentially) need painting or staining, would have a screen that fits (except for a certain brand with Tilt-Turns LOL), would look nice and new, could come in new and different colors, would lower heating/cooling bills, could have blinds or grilles inside of the glass for even lower maintenance, could filter out the sun's fading ultraviolet rays, could give the home an updated look. Storms wouldn't do any of these, at least not to the same extent.
8. As for an updated look, a new window doesn't have to be the same type and fit into the same opening. One could change the look of a room by making a window larger (or smaller), put in a patio door where a window used to be, add a transom or an arched window, add a bay or bow window, change a double hung to an awning, add leaded or stained glass, etc. It's a lot cheaper than adding on a room addition.

PROS FOR BUYING STORM WINDOWS
1. They're cheaper - at least initially. A storm might cost $100 installed. A vinyl replacement window about $350-$950, and a wood/clad $450-$1,200. Replacement windows would presumably save more in energy costs compared to new storms, but it would usually take quite a while to recoup those costs if the only issue one was looking at is dollars and cents and disregarding all of the other benefits. Twenty storms might cost $2,000 compared to $11,000 for replacement windows. The storms might be a better choice for some. Not my choice, but to each his own. Not everyone can afford to have the best of everything. If they were all mandated to have the very best of everything, not many could afford to buy a car, or build a house, etc. How many of us have a $2,000 stereo system? A $50,000 car?
2. Many of the pros on this site (a great bunch by the way) have mentioned the energy-efficiency issue, and rightly so. But it's hard for us sometimes to imagine that there are people out there who are satisified with less than ideal energy-efficient windows. If you don't highly value the improvement that new windows would offer, and you're OK with the performance of single glazed with a storm, then it seems to me that replacing the storms only is a viable option. You won't have the greatest performance, and you'll have higher maintenance, and they won't be as easy to operate, etc., but it's a time-proven system that works. By "today's" standards it doesn't work as well, but it works.
3. Having a storm in conjunction with single glazed prime windows is marginally OK. Having a storm with insulating glass is even a better performer. Usually one does not see storm/screen combinations on a vinyl window (it's not needed, and could lead to vinyl profile heat distortion). Modern wood/clad windows will sometimes use storm/screen combinations even though they'll already be double glazed Low E. It can help protect windows from water infiltration, exterior glass breakage (stones, baseballs, etc.), and adds an extra layer of insulation. Over the last 10 years or so I'd estimate that I've only sold 5 to 10 jobs with storm windows when an insulating glass (or better) prime window was being used; I dont think it's necessary, but it can be done. Here's some stats, all based on 0° outside: single glazed 14-17° glass temp, adding a storm ups it to 45° (that's a 31° increase). Low E/argon gas glazing is 57°, adding a storm ups it to 60° (that's only a 3° increase, not worth it to me but it is to some).
4. Similar to having a lens cap on a camera to protect the main lens from scratching, adding an exterior storm can protect the prime window from exterior damage.
5. Some older homes look great with true leaded glass, stained glass, or true divided lites. They typically have a storm on the exterior. To replace that with a replacement window may potentially lessen the home's charm. A new storm may be the best option if the existing prime windows are in good shape or if they're being restored, and if energy-efficiency and some of the other benefits are not priority #1.
6. More than one poster mentioned you have to open the windows twice to get air - first open the prime window, then open the storm. That's only true for the first time one would open them in the spring, or if you only open them once per year. Normally one would raise up the storm and leave it up for the warm season. That way each time you open the prime window, the storm is already up and the screen is able to do its thing.

CLOSING COMMENTS
My 1st choice is to have a low-maintenance, easy cleaning, energy-efficient INSIDE prime window. But I'm not you. If you're OK with keeping your inside windows, then getting a new storm ( possibly aluminum per my previous comments) is just fine. It's cheap; it's easy; it's long-lasting, but a marginal performer by today's standards, and perhaps the next owner of your home will make a different decision regarding the windows on the home. I wince as I contemplate storms though; I tend to think they're good for income properties or people that can't afford anything else. Best of luck with your research and desision!

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#41 Post by FenEx »

OK, enough already... let's put it to a vote: Higher-performance windows vs Storms. For the higher-performance, we will start at the bare minimum- Energy Star requirements for most of the country. (Dbl/Low-E/Argon)

Those in favor of HP windows: (I'll begin the list)
The Environmental Protection Agency (Energy Star)
The United States Department of Energy (Energy Star)
HUD - Has just agreed to make new government homes Energy Star
IRS- Will not allow storms as acceptable for builder's energy tax credits
Ecobrokers- Prefer and Promote high-performance
Appraisers (see article above, many more available)
Real Estate agents :lower utilities & maintenance, better resale value (Remax and Prudential Realty promote modern science)
Custom Home Builders: 1 of 10 homes being built in the US are Energy Star and builders can receive $2,000 credit per home (storms fail)
.... and me... so far... but there are many others.

Those in favor or storm windows
The storm window manufacturers
Weatherization programs limited by state fund allowances
Lower income households and rental property owners
Dafreak

Please feel free to enter your vote. I had no idea that all those agencies promoting performance windows were actually selling them... but according to rippowam... they must be sales reps trying to screw the homeowner and provide the window people hot-tubs at the cost of their reputations and Billions of tax dollars.

Enough already... this is truly ridiculous. If someone occasionally want's storms... so be it... but you stand absolutely no chance of winning a debate that it serves more than saving money upfront unless you have a property with historical or very strong architectural restrictions.

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Win-admin
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#42 Post by Win-admin »

We agree; this debate is rediculous. Perhaps we should start a site dedicated to storm windows!

With that said we will be closing out this thread.

Thanks to all who participated.

RW Admin

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