Vinyl vs. Fiberglass Replacement Windows

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windowmann2000
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#16 Post by windowmann2000 »

Too much propaganda in this thread. Common sense easily defines fiberglass as a stronger and more durable material, but at what cost? Vinyl windows, even the bottom shelf like Silverline easily have a twenty year + life.
Expansion and contraction, yup but at tolerable levels, and if you have a unit built like Schuco, it has to be a thirty to forty year + window. Vinyl's built in the early eighties had quite a few problems but currently with the better balancers, spacers and sealants and vinyl additives even the cheap ones have a good life.
It all comes down to price and options. If you want the option of many exterior colors and different interior combo's, fiberglass leads the way because theres no doubt about it's durability, but finding the right fiberglass mfrg will be no different than shopping for vinyls.
Pella and Marvin are very limited in their options and not that attractive. Comfortline, has the options but don't seem to be able to put it all together. I favor Milgard with the hopes that their reputation and warranty will put them close to the top of this new generation of windows, we'll see shortly.
And what this thread doesn't say anything about is value when comparing vinyl and fiberglass. Twenty plus years with a white vinyl that's $300@ versus a fiberglass at $900@ at thirteen windows cannot be made up in energy savings or resale. And then of course everything in between is what keeps the debate going endlessly.

FenEx
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#17 Post by FenEx »

Wow... I know this site page is green but I didn'y realize it was Greenpeace. OK... few facts.

First of all, the USEPA estimates the total entry of airborne and waterborne dioxins from PVC production and waste incineration to be 0.02% of the average total dioxin emissions in the US and Canada. In short, you can eliminate the product and have absolutely NO effect on the environment. I don't suppose Greenpeace mentions that. The amount of dioxin contributed to the incineration of PVC pipes and other products at the end of their useful life is rated at ZERO because they are still in use after 50 years and can be recycled. The largest contributors of dioxin are the domestic use of wood, iron sintering and metallurgy in general that use poorly designed waste incineration facilities. Salt and products that include it (i.e. burning wood, coal or other organics), contribute more dioxins than the chlorine in PVC at a ratio of about a million to one. The high amounts of dioxin in "products" is mainly from the treatment of wood and other natural biodegradable products, to prevent biodegradation during their usefull life.

Greenpeace appears to target manmade materials over natural materials regardless of which is doing the most damage to the air quality. They see the organic offenders as simply a way of the world. I say that's a bunch of crap! With proper disposal and incineration, it can be controlled and/or eliminated.

Since we are on the polution thing, the EPA and virtually every governing body on the planet, agree that the largest contributor of polution leading to damage to human life is INDOOR air-quality, at a rate of anywhere from 2-100+ times that of outdoor air (dioxins and all). The primary sources of these polutants are mold (that loves wood), paint and other wood finishes, blown fiberglass (particles driven by air infiltration), which has been called the next asbestos and already banned in several countries in Europe, poorly maintained and vented combustion appliances, and household cleaners used to remove the aforementioned from your furniture and appliances.

We can drag this debate out for years... and never all agree. So, I'll cut to the chase.

I present whole-house diagnostic testing and solutions. When it comes to the window portions, I carry top-of-the-line vinyl, wood and fiberglass products. Each has nitch. Based on the following criteria, I can very easily tell you that my vinyl line sells 10-1 over the others. Why? They have better performance. Better U-factors (about 30% better), better DP ratings (DP65 vs DP 45), better warranty (LT vs 10/20), better IG seals (TPS vs XLEdge), better price point (typically 20-40% less), and several other reasons.

Just for House-Doc: You have made many repetitive claims about your knowledge of fiberglass windows vs the others, and you have also mentioned affiliations between windows and how a house works.. as your name would suggest. I am curious about your credentials and professional affiliations to give such advice and perhaps a bit of backround as I disagree with many of your opinions. Please share. Cutting and pasting websites that support your views do NOT make you an authority of building performance. Visit ANY website and they will make supportive claims and present negative opinions about the competition. What I would like to know, is if you have any Personal/Professional experience dealing with these manufacturers, Government agencies, and their affiliates to claim expertise in anything other than an ICPE (Internet Cut & Paste Engineer). You appear to back the opinions of others, but who backs your's? All in the interest of science and education.

Fenex

windowmann2000
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#18 Post by windowmann2000 »

ICPE. Thanks Fenex, as usual your comments are with humor and quite factual and informative. Good post.

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Randy
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#19 Post by Randy »

Way to go FenEx! We were all having a good time, debating back and forth, and once again you have to come on and blow someone away with those facts of yours!

Next time can you let the rest of us have a little more fun with the new posters before you step in?

FiberglassVinyl
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#20 Post by FiberglassVinyl »

As the originator of this topic (remember me? :) ) I want to thank everyone for their responses. My initial research into fiberglass led me to believe that it should be the superior material with which to construct windows, but my final criterion is what are the expected lifetimes of fiberglass and vinyl, and if fiberglass windows do last longer, does it justify their 35% price premium over vinyl? If vinyl lasts 25 years before needing replacement, will fiberglass last at least 35% longer (about 34 years)? My initial concerns about vinyl were how well its finish will hold up (before becoming dull, chalky, etc.) and whether it has the strength and stability to keep the windows operable and the edge seals intact. I also think fiberglass has an advantage in that it can be painted (to match interior colors more than exterior) and has thinner frames with larger sightlines.

The consensus I'm hearing is that vinyl is an excellent choice:
- Vinyl should last 20-30 years (earwax, can you state your sources?).
- Vinyl has better performance (U-factors, DP ratings, warranty, IG seals, price point, and several other reasons per FenEx.

No one says fiberglass is not a good choice, but as Windowman2000 observes, its greater price needs to be justified. This is what I'm attempting to do.

FenEx, you make a compelling argument for vinyl, while stating that both have their nitch. Can you summarize the nitch in which each excels? I'm also wondering whether the performance advantages of vinyl you list apply to the Milgard Classic (or Styleline if I want larger sightlines) as well, or just to the top-of-the-line Schuco which I have seen you justifiably praise in other posts? Is Schuco available on the West Coast (their website doesn't say)? What lifetime do expect for Schuco and Milgard vinyl? Milgard's website is somewhat out of date, but I was told that their Classic windows come with intercept spacers and Cardinal LoE2-270 glass standard. I don't know if the Cardinal XL-Edge spacer is an option, but in either case they are both inferior to the TPS spacer which I believe only Schuco uses. If there are vinyl windows superior to Milgard available in the San Francisco Bay Area, who are they? What will make a fiberglass and a vinyl window need replacement?

House Doc gave a sincere and vigorous defense of fiberglass, but does 40 years sound like a reasonable lifetime for Milgard Ultra? Randy, what are the issues you alluded to concerning Milgard Ultra windows?

Again, thanks to all. It helps someone like me who wants to be as informed as possible before choosing. Answers to the questions I've just asked would be greatly appreciated.

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Randy
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#21 Post by Randy »

Milgard Ultra single hungs utilize a pocket sill, which performs poorly here in Houston where we have mildew, pollen and lots of pine needles to clog the weep holes.

Milgard Ultra double hungs were pulled from the market, after I sold a houseful of them do a longstanding customer of mine. We had to replace every single window in the home because they were leaking air and water. Last I heard Milgard was still working on a new design. The screens on the double hungs fit very poorly.

Milgard Ultra sliders utilize cheap rollers which allow the sash to grind on the frame when operating.

Milgard Ultra casments and awnings are very good windows.

wayside
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#22 Post by wayside »

I'm a homeowner who chose fiberglass (Marvin Infinity) over vinyl or aluminum-clad wood. Here's why:

What I liked:

1) More glass. My windows are relatively small, I figure I gained around 15% or more glass per window over vinyl because of the narrower rails. This was a big issue for us.

2) We liked the way they look better than the vinyl windows. I liked the integrated lock/tilt mechanism instead of the standard finger-thingies (technical term), my wife thought the vinyl windows that we looked at looked plastic-y.

3) We paid $575 for a 30x48 double-hung, which included removal of the old window and storm, installation, and rewrapping the exterior in aluminum. This was about 40% less than a quality aluminum-clad wood window. It was about 30% more than the cheapest vinyl I would have considered (Harvey) but I think it is comparable to some of the better vinyl windows. We thought it was a good value.

The pros on here make a pretty good case for Schuco as the best replacement window. However, the Schuco and another "premium" vinyl window available around here (NewPro) are both sold by companies with outrageous and insulting sales practices, and would have run in the $1200/window range. Not. A. Chance.

4) When you are a geek like me, you get a few dollars of entertainment by having something different than all your friends who are replacing their windows. :)

5) No buyer's remorse. I have no regrets at all about getting the window I did.

Things that didn't really matter:

1) Paintability is nice, but I don't ever plan on painting them so that wasn't a big consideration. We did get the "Everwood" treatment in one room ($75/window upcharge) so we could stain them to match the woodwork, which I still haven't done (6 months and counting). I regret letting my wife talk me into getting it. :) It comes in different exterior colors, which is nice if you need it.

2) The strength of the fiberglass over vinyl appeals to the engineer in me, plus I've seen more than my share of cheap/flimsy vinyl windows that were sagging, so I will admit to a bias against vinyl in the beginning. The pros here educated me that with a high-quality vinyl window, strength and sagging are not a problem. So this turned into a non-issue as well.

What I didn't like:

1) It's not a thermally-high performance window. Infinity is middle of the road energy-wise, there was no option for triple-pane or krypton. As near as I could determine the difference in terms of energy cost will be around $50-75/year, which is not a big deal. Hopefully I won't be sorry this winter. They are noticeably quieter and less drafty than the old single-pane with storms.

As for how long they will last - this was not a huge issue for me. I seriously doubt I will still be in this house in 15+years, so whether it lasts 25 or 30 years was not a big deal. Are you seriously planning to be in that house for another 30 years?

What it came down to for us, was that we liked the look, thermally they were adequate and a big improvement over the old windows, and we were comfortable with the price point and the value we perceived we were getting. These factors were way more important than a couple hundredths of U-factor or a few extra hypothetical years of life.

Hope my ramblings are informative. Good luck with your choice.

earwax
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#23 Post by earwax »

Vinyl should last 20-30 years (earwax, can you state your sources?).
My source is the vinyl extruders themselves. I do business with Royal and Mikron. They both are very reputable and are by statistics two of the largest window extruders in the Nation. They guarantee the windows to be good for 30 years. I would bet that most windows will hold up longer.

IF you Google "life expectancy of vinyl windows" look at the first website. I think it is pretty accurate. Most website you see slamming vinyl use old products made in the early 80's when vinyl was in its infancy. PVC has come a long way. The extruders will tell you the same thing. The blue color and the chalkiness is a real thing. But compounds are changed continually to offer stronger more reliable product.

House Doctor
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#24 Post by House Doctor »

RANDY: Marvin started using fiberglass in their patio door styles and sills almost 20 years ago. The new construction version of Infinity (called Integrity) has been the fastest growing line of windows for new construction for almost a full decade now. (regardless of window type or composition) I was one of the first to recommend them to clients in the early 1990's and have yet to see ANY manufacturing flaw or warranty claim. I've also worked with about 20 vinyl windows; 30 wood & clad wood windows, and numerous aluminum thermal break systems in the last 25 years. I've seen manufacturing flaws & warranty issues in every single one of them -- except Marvin's Integrity and Marvin's Infinity. I've even seen flaws in Marvins much more expensive Ultimate and Magnum Clad wood lines. But never in their fiberglass lines. I can't believe they've never had any problems with the fiberglass lines, but they're obviously darn few or I would have heard something from some customer somewhere in the last 8 years. As to Milgards fiberglass, they have some design peculiarities that make them great in the south and west, but lousy in the north and midwest; (specifically, that some parts are Aluminum, others are vinyl, and even though they're mostly fiberglass, a chain (or window) is only as strong as its weakest link. The Aluminum 45 degree bay mulls are one example--they're aluminum, not fiberglass. They have the same heat and cold transferrance problems that you get with aluminum or steel reinforcement in vinyl windows and aluminum windows. (Infinity makes this part out of Fiberglass and has no such problem.) As to Comfortline, I've not seen problems myself, but have heard that the real oak veneer option has inconsistant quality issues-- some jobs are flawless, some have flawed real wood veneer-- not sure if this is due to the manufacturing process, or to the Oak trees they use to get the real wood veneer from. But to say that Milgard and Comfortline have MAJOR issues, is to be LESS THAN HONEST. Evey window made probably has some issues somewhere. But the fact that Ultrex Fiberglass (like Marvin's Infinity & Integrity) is a Six-Sigma product, goes a long way to explain why I've yet to hear of any warranty issues with them. And in the last decade we've got Ultrex Fiberglass in a LOT of projects of all shapes and sizes. I've also never had a problem with any of the FIBERGLASS parts that Marvin has used in their Clad Wood doors in the last 20-25 years. (I have had problems with wood and vinyl parts used in those products though. My biggest complaint was the plastic vinyl stops before they replaced them with extrusions in the 1980's)

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Randy
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#25 Post by Randy »

HOUSE DR: I see you conveniently avoided the spacer issue. I'm still waiting for you to back up your claim that Cardinal's stainless is the most reliable glass spacer. It would be nice if you could provide some legitimate third party source rather than cut-and-paste from the Cardinal site.

As to Milgard being best suited for the South, that is a rather ignorant statement, since that is the part of the country where Milgard has the fewest dealers. http://milgard.findlocation.com/ And, by the way, Milgard has only one dealer in Texas (Dallas) and they do not sell the fiberglass window. You must be smarter than Milgard. Maybe you should give them a call and let them know that their products are best suited for the region where they are absent.

As to the LESS THAN HONEST charge, I have had to replace two houses full of windows, one Milgard and one Comfortline. The Milgard job was double hungs that leaked air and water because of a poor jamb liner design, and the Comfortline job was due to poor painting on the finish. Comfortline actually expected us to take spray paint and field paint their windows that has been sold as factory finished. They were not concerned at all about the poor paint job. These I consider to be major issues.

Now, as to your integrity, answer the question on the spacer. Or answer the questions posed by FenEx as to your credentials, professional affiliations, etc...

FenEx
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#26 Post by FenEx »

FiberglassVinyl

In my previous post I did not mention the specific brands that I carry, just that I offer all three options. I allow homeowners to specify the criteria that I apply to guide them to a specific product line. For instance, if they have a very old home and desire wood, that's where we go. Now if the wood is going to be painted white, I'll show the advantages of my vinyl line. If they down right do not want vinyl, I'll mention the possibility of fiberglass. If they want the most energy efficient, we go back to vinyl. If they need to have a stained interior, we discuss the vinyl woodgrain finishes, all wood or cross-breeds with wood interior/fiberglass exterior. If they need custom sizes, it eliminates the cross-breed and we go back to the drawing board. If they need wood and custom sizes, the all wood line we carry can offer these but then we are also talking full-frame replacements and cleaning out a bank account. If the homeowner elects the more efficient vinyl, and saves a couple thousand, we can then apply this amount to some strategic air-sealing & insulation and in many cases double the amount of energy savings provided by the windows alone. I put all the options on the table and try to connect the dots for the homeowner. In most cases, each homeowner has their own individual hot-buttons. Each geographic area will have different product offerings but everyone should have a number of choices for each window type. You don't catch more fish with a lure that you like, you catch them with a lure that they like. In any case, my tarter sauce is on the table. Sorry for the fish analogy, but I am still having my morning coffee and it's all that came to mind.

FiberglassVinyl
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#27 Post by FiberglassVinyl »

Thanks for the replys.

Randy, you've actually reassured me some about Milgard Ultra since I would choose to use casements (less depth than horizontal sliders) and picture windows. We have a much more benign climate here than in Houston. Interesting how one "size" does not fit all.

wayside, it's my boyhood home, built by my parents, so I plan to be here the rest of my (hopefully long) life. That's why I care about longevity as well as thermal performance. I believe triple glaze and krypton is overkill here where we vary between lows of 30 degrees F (for a few days) in the winter to highs in the low 100's (for a couple weeks) in the summer (although we hit 115 during the July heat wave), and low humidity unlike Houston. Our energy costs are EXPENSIVE though.

earwax, Milgard has nothing on life expectancy that I found. I wonder if anyone has a handle on Milgard's vinyl and fiberglass life expectancy.

FenEx, you've almost convinced me I'll be okay with vinyl, but when you listed the performance advantages of vinyl over fiberglass, I wondered if Milgard is representative of the top-of-the-line vinyl windows used in your comparison? Since you mentioned TPS spacers, which only Schuco has, I wonder if Milgard's viny compares as favorably? Would Milgard vinyl last 30+ years?

Finally, it sounds like fiberglass may indeed last a "lifetime" (40+ years). Does anyone disagree? And I haven't discovered this anywhere on this site, but what is the most likely cause of why a vinyl window would need replacing and why a fiberglass window would need replacing?

Thanks again to all. You're a great resource.

Window4U (IL)
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#28 Post by Window4U (IL) »

The biggest reason I've seen for replacement windows to go downhill over a long period of time is the counterbalances going bad making operation difficult or impossible, the glass fogging up from a bad spacer seal, or various parts breaking. Very rarely is a sash or frame the culprit in a window not lasting, ...unless of course you are talking about products like wood that rot.

That is why many of us have spent so much effort trying to convince homeowners to buy wndows with better spacers, better counterbalances, and higher quality parts.
The longevity of a window depends much more on these parts, which by the way are routinely bought by the factories from other suppliers. So whether it's vinyl, fiberglass, or wood, a window is only going to operate well as long as these outsourced parts last.
With the onslaught of cheap parts from China being introduced over the last several years into the US window market, it worries me that many window companies are using these cheaply made imported parts to cut costs. I fear longevity in some brands may suffer significantly as a result.

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Randy
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#29 Post by Randy »

FiberglassVinyl, I think you will be very pleased with the casements and fixed units. They are very nice.

I don't think anyone on this site dislikes fiberglass windows, most of us just think that they have a ways to go still. Wood, vinyl and aluminum windows have had the bugs worked out, while fiberglass is still getting through some of the initial issues.

Good luck to you.

JScott
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#30 Post by JScott »

Just more FYI,
The price indicated above for the Infinity units is correct. Also...

The Tacoma plant indicated yesterday the Ultra tilt double hung is being released next month in white only and only on the west coast market.

West coasters please follow up with your views and opinions of the new ultra. I am extremely curious about the redesigned locking system. I hope they have one in chicago next month so I can see for myself. Thanks.

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