Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
Hi folks,
After browsing this forum for about 10 hours over the past three days, I'm ready to ask my questions.
I live in Lexington, KY. My budget for replacing 13 double-hungs and 1 slider (above shower surround) is around $400 per hole, before the new tax credit. Assume vinyl, low-E/argon or better, unless I can get fiberglass installed for < $450.
I have done quite a bit of research, but have run out of time to do more--I am a graduate student trying to finish up the semester. Also, the clock is ticking on low interest rates. I am doing a cash-out 15-year refi to take care of some last details on my house, and I don't want to wait long, because I believe interest rates are bound to go higher fairly soon (standard crystal ball disclaimer applies).
So I would very much appreciate some help evaluating what is important in this price range. I know that I can't have Quality/Service/Price all at the same time on my budget. I may live in the house 5 years or more. I may be there for 20, though that seems unlikely.
I have three proposals:
- Gilkey $6,100
- Window World 6000 series $5,071
- PGT 2300 series (independent installer) $5,092
(I will not talk to Champion, Air-Tite, Pella, or Andersen. No need to go there.)
I'm not thrilled with any of my three proposals for the reasons below...
After browsing this forum extensively, I understand peoples' strong reservations about Window World's product and installation.
I have read posts here that call Gilkey "decent". But it has a pocket sill design like the 6000. Gilkey makes much of their "23-chamber" design. My neighbor's contractor friend advises against Gilkey because "you think you're getting one thing, but they install another." Hmmm. How would I know, even if I supervised the install?
PGT seems sturdy, but its PD is lower than Gilkey's and WW's. Warranty is not as good as either of the above, it covers no labor. But it is a slant-sill design (favored here?). More downsides - alum-reinforced sash not thermally isolated (from their engineering drawing, helpfully provided by their customer service), low number of chambers (5 on sides, 2 on sill). Seems like this one is out of the mix.
So...
- Who else would be worth talking to? Lansing? Alside (I have read the extensive discussions and maybe should consider the Sheffield)? Others?
- How important are chambers? I know they are for thermal isolation and strength, but I don't see how strength is absolutely relevant because windows aren't structural members of the house.
- Is the open-cell foam "insulator" strip around the WW frame to be avoided? Seems to me like it would tear easily during installation and be subject to degradation over time.
- Pocket vs. slant sills. I don't want the maintenance problems of cleanout and clogged weep system. Are there decent slant sill designs in my price range that will keep air and water infiltration as near nil as possible?
- Argon dissipation. Problem? I have seen older posts (2004) that talk about more modern systems. What are those, and can they be had on my beer budget?
- What about installation? I expect at least non-expanding spray-in foam around the new frame.
- What about independent installers? I have been somewhat biased against, because of warranty concerns. But assume I chose a reputable one with excellent references. What is reasonable to expect in terms of labor and installation warranty? Also, it seems like I would be dealing with *two* parties for warranty satisfaction if needed.
Thank you for reading this long post, and I'll look forward to your thoughts.
After browsing this forum for about 10 hours over the past three days, I'm ready to ask my questions.
I live in Lexington, KY. My budget for replacing 13 double-hungs and 1 slider (above shower surround) is around $400 per hole, before the new tax credit. Assume vinyl, low-E/argon or better, unless I can get fiberglass installed for < $450.
I have done quite a bit of research, but have run out of time to do more--I am a graduate student trying to finish up the semester. Also, the clock is ticking on low interest rates. I am doing a cash-out 15-year refi to take care of some last details on my house, and I don't want to wait long, because I believe interest rates are bound to go higher fairly soon (standard crystal ball disclaimer applies).
So I would very much appreciate some help evaluating what is important in this price range. I know that I can't have Quality/Service/Price all at the same time on my budget. I may live in the house 5 years or more. I may be there for 20, though that seems unlikely.
I have three proposals:
- Gilkey $6,100
- Window World 6000 series $5,071
- PGT 2300 series (independent installer) $5,092
(I will not talk to Champion, Air-Tite, Pella, or Andersen. No need to go there.)
I'm not thrilled with any of my three proposals for the reasons below...
After browsing this forum extensively, I understand peoples' strong reservations about Window World's product and installation.
I have read posts here that call Gilkey "decent". But it has a pocket sill design like the 6000. Gilkey makes much of their "23-chamber" design. My neighbor's contractor friend advises against Gilkey because "you think you're getting one thing, but they install another." Hmmm. How would I know, even if I supervised the install?
PGT seems sturdy, but its PD is lower than Gilkey's and WW's. Warranty is not as good as either of the above, it covers no labor. But it is a slant-sill design (favored here?). More downsides - alum-reinforced sash not thermally isolated (from their engineering drawing, helpfully provided by their customer service), low number of chambers (5 on sides, 2 on sill). Seems like this one is out of the mix.
So...
- Who else would be worth talking to? Lansing? Alside (I have read the extensive discussions and maybe should consider the Sheffield)? Others?
- How important are chambers? I know they are for thermal isolation and strength, but I don't see how strength is absolutely relevant because windows aren't structural members of the house.
- Is the open-cell foam "insulator" strip around the WW frame to be avoided? Seems to me like it would tear easily during installation and be subject to degradation over time.
- Pocket vs. slant sills. I don't want the maintenance problems of cleanout and clogged weep system. Are there decent slant sill designs in my price range that will keep air and water infiltration as near nil as possible?
- Argon dissipation. Problem? I have seen older posts (2004) that talk about more modern systems. What are those, and can they be had on my beer budget?
- What about installation? I expect at least non-expanding spray-in foam around the new frame.
- What about independent installers? I have been somewhat biased against, because of warranty concerns. But assume I chose a reputable one with excellent references. What is reasonable to expect in terms of labor and installation warranty? Also, it seems like I would be dealing with *two* parties for warranty satisfaction if needed.
Thank you for reading this long post, and I'll look forward to your thoughts.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
How much are you willing to spend?
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
> My budget for replacing 13 double-hungs and 1 slider (above shower surround) is around $400 per hole
The three estimates I listed run from $5,071 to $6,100 ($362/hole - $436/hole). I could spend a bit more, but not much, because it would take away from total budget for carpet and kitchen work.
Thanks!
The three estimates I listed run from $5,071 to $6,100 ($362/hole - $436/hole). I could spend a bit more, but not much, because it would take away from total budget for carpet and kitchen work.
Thanks!
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
In the $400.00 range Alside excalibers are a choice. Unfortunately the quality of anything at that price will be low.
Sloped sills are better as the shed water better. Argon gas will leak anywhere from .5-3% per year
Multi chambers add strength which is critical for vinyl windows holding their shapes. Weak lineals will sag are twist over time.
Sloped sills are better as the shed water better. Argon gas will leak anywhere from .5-3% per year
Multi chambers add strength which is critical for vinyl windows holding their shapes. Weak lineals will sag are twist over time.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
I would contact Gorell for a dealer. The 5155 sloped sill works well in your area. Probably around the upper cost plus 50 you posted for white no bells and whistles tax credit compatible units. Fiberglass would be more than your budget. You are in that area wher $50 more really makes a difference at the low end/med end quality. I usually don't see the Gilkeys that cheap- is this a low end model or from another mfg.?
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
buddy11: Thank you. Alside excaliburs are essentially the WW 6000 series, right? What about the Sheffield upgrade I see mentioned here often? If only to get the sloped sill?
Weak lineals: My bidders -- WW 600/Excalubur/Gilkey/PGT -- all have metal reinforced meeting rails. So the sagging could be a problem elsewhere?
The Gilkey seems to have two to three times as many chambers on sides, top, and bottom of the frame. Stronger? Their 20-year warranty specifically includes sagging and bowing.
JScott: Gilkey must be hungry. Unless they have multiple grades that they are not telling me about.
Which may get to what my neighbor's contractor friend meant when he said "don't use Gilkey because what they give you will not be what you thought you were buying." I have not spoken personally to the contractor, so I don't know what his biases are.
All: I will take a look at the Gorell. Also, the neighbor's contractor friend says look at the Lansing Windjammer 60. Is it worth the time and effort?
Thanks!
Weak lineals: My bidders -- WW 600/Excalubur/Gilkey/PGT -- all have metal reinforced meeting rails. So the sagging could be a problem elsewhere?
The Gilkey seems to have two to three times as many chambers on sides, top, and bottom of the frame. Stronger? Their 20-year warranty specifically includes sagging and bowing.
JScott: Gilkey must be hungry. Unless they have multiple grades that they are not telling me about.
Which may get to what my neighbor's contractor friend meant when he said "don't use Gilkey because what they give you will not be what you thought you were buying." I have not spoken personally to the contractor, so I don't know what his biases are.
All: I will take a look at the Gorell. Also, the neighbor's contractor friend says look at the Lansing Windjammer 60. Is it worth the time and effort?
Thanks!
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
On my foam surround question, I found information in this forum about install methods, including comments by Gorell about closed cell foam being an effective seal when used in combination with caulking.
Is the foam surround on the WW product closed cell?
Gilkey and the independent PGT installer would use low-expansion canned foam in the reveal.
Thanks!
Also, thanks for the info on argon dispersion. Are there alternatives? That I can afford?
Is the foam surround on the WW product closed cell?
Gilkey and the independent PGT installer would use low-expansion canned foam in the reveal.
Thanks!
Also, thanks for the info on argon dispersion. Are there alternatives? That I can afford?
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Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
Most likely the foam surround from WW would be open cell gray ether foam tape from Lamatek. It's an okay insulator compared to fiberglass, but not nearly as good as low-expansion foam. Lamatek makes most of this stuff for the window companies out there and they are only like 25 minutes away from me. I have an account with them and get this stuff made for me in the thickness and widths that I desire.
I only use the foam tape when I've measure so tight that I can get the nozzel of my Hilti gun into the reveal of my openings from the new window to the existing frames. It's also real nice when you have to use a head expander, which for me is not too often. So, I'm going to have to say WW is not to going to insulate up to your standards.
I only use the foam tape when I've measure so tight that I can get the nozzel of my Hilti gun into the reveal of my openings from the new window to the existing frames. It's also real nice when you have to use a head expander, which for me is not too often. So, I'm going to have to say WW is not to going to insulate up to your standards.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
Delaware Mike: Thanks for your insights. I bet WW wouldn't strip that off and use Hilti, would they?
Gilkey and the independent I'm talking with say they use the Hilti foam/applicator system.
All: To find out who my nearest Gorell dealer is, their Web form required my name, home addr., and email. I filled it out, though it is invasive. I must want to talk to them as bad as they want to talk to me.
I forgot to mention grids: My three estimates include contour grids for 5 of my 14 windows, due to budget constraints.
Apologies: I realize now that many you are independent contractors, the subject of one of my warranty questions. I see that I wrote the question in a way that could cause offense. I have utmost respect for you, because I was a painting contractor for about 10 years. I had to ask, because y'all would know better than anyone how to explain what is customary about warranty.
Gilkey and the independent I'm talking with say they use the Hilti foam/applicator system.
All: To find out who my nearest Gorell dealer is, their Web form required my name, home addr., and email. I filled it out, though it is invasive. I must want to talk to them as bad as they want to talk to me.
I forgot to mention grids: My three estimates include contour grids for 5 of my 14 windows, due to budget constraints.
Apologies: I realize now that many you are independent contractors, the subject of one of my warranty questions. I see that I wrote the question in a way that could cause offense. I have utmost respect for you, because I was a painting contractor for about 10 years. I had to ask, because y'all would know better than anyone how to explain what is customary about warranty.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
More companies are wanting data.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
JScott: Happy to provide whatever I can, as best I can. What else would be helpful? I'm replacing 14 double-hungs (5 with grids, all low-E argon) for $362-$436 per opening (3 proposals), installed.JScott wrote:More companies are wanting data.
You asked earlier about Gilkey. They are quoting their own brand. They also handle Soft-Lite's Barrington, but I did not ask to see numbers on that one.
Let me punt the data question back to you. You suggested I consider the Gorell 5155. But like Gilkey, doesn't it use the PHTech extrusion? What makes it worth another $50 per hole? Matter of fact, what big difference will I see in *any* brand for another $50 per?
I want to know because I am competing with my wife for a chunk of a total remodel budget. What I get on windows takes away from her kitchen and floors. That will be a tough sell. But she can be convinced, given verifiable data.
Appreciate anything you can offer, and will provide whatever info I can to help you.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
This answer is mostly opinionated...
Several extruders make the lineals for many window fabricators. Some fabricators use stock designed lineals and many use specifically tooled dies just for their exclusive profile.
Gorell was brilliant. They are the only company to actually design the complete window around the balance system.
The 5155 does not have weep holes. I think they are un-sightly.
Gorell is a larger company and they have the best customer service on the vinyl side. If you need a part or a glass they don't ask for the old one to be returned.
Their equipment is newer and therefore more consistent manufacturing.
Their factory workers have a sloagan for quality assurance. If you would'nt put it in your moms house then don't ship it.
Sorry this post sounds like a Gorell commercial. Gilkey makes a fair window. I just think the Gorells outperform after 8-10 years of service, mostly due to their design and manufacturing.
Several extruders make the lineals for many window fabricators. Some fabricators use stock designed lineals and many use specifically tooled dies just for their exclusive profile.
Gorell was brilliant. They are the only company to actually design the complete window around the balance system.
The 5155 does not have weep holes. I think they are un-sightly.
Gorell is a larger company and they have the best customer service on the vinyl side. If you need a part or a glass they don't ask for the old one to be returned.
Their equipment is newer and therefore more consistent manufacturing.
Their factory workers have a sloagan for quality assurance. If you would'nt put it in your moms house then don't ship it.
Sorry this post sounds like a Gorell commercial. Gilkey makes a fair window. I just think the Gorells outperform after 8-10 years of service, mostly due to their design and manufacturing.
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
JScott: Thanks for the info about extruders and Gorell's design. Customer service is important to me. That alone may be worth the upcharge. Still, I have to convince my spouse!
<hissy fit>
On the downside, Gorell seems to want to control my access to their dealer info. Why not just post it on their page instead of making me fill out a form? They sent me a follow-up email to say that I will receive *another* email with a list of their dealers in my area. Not happy about that.
That seems so Kremlin in a time when information flow has never been more free.
</hissy fit>
Thank you again, JScott, for the helpful info. Looking forward to talking with Gorell's dealer.
<hissy fit>
On the downside, Gorell seems to want to control my access to their dealer info. Why not just post it on their page instead of making me fill out a form? They sent me a follow-up email to say that I will receive *another* email with a list of their dealers in my area. Not happy about that.
That seems so Kremlin in a time when information flow has never been more free.
</hissy fit>
Thank you again, JScott, for the helpful info. Looking forward to talking with Gorell's dealer.
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Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
OK so if I'm reading this right...you have a budget of $6300 and if you don't spend it on windows, you're gonna spend it on beer?
KY isn't that long a drive for me if I got beer on my mind. Who's else is in?
KY isn't that long a drive for me if I got beer on my mind. Who's else is in?
Re: Central KY vinyl replacements on a beer budget
windowdude: Sure, if you'll bring the Yuengling, like Smoky and the Bandit!