St. Louis Replacement Windows

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kgriffer
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Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:51 pm

St. Louis Replacement Windows

#1 Post by kgriffer »

I’m looking to replace 20 year old original construction aluminum windows in the St. Louis area. (I have 10 windows total and a patio door) I keep reading here about Okna, Soft-Lite and Sunrise as highly regarded with maybe honorable mention to Polaris and Simonton… maybe. Anyway, it doesn’t look like Okna nor Sunrise are in this area. And I might have found 1 Soft-Lite dealer (Zen). And maybe 1 Polaris dealer (Wholesale Siding Depot). And a few Simonton dealers including Home Depot. If anybody can tell me about or even recommend other dealers I would appreciate it.

Now I have already gotten a handful of bids. All bids included all 10 windows and the patio door. Some bids included 2 “hopper” windows in the basement which I probably won’t end up replacing. And I have a few bids yet on the calendar.

Current bids are as follows:
Home Depot for Simonton 6100 Series windows - $9,000 (includes “hoppers”)
Home Depot for Simonton 6500 Series windows - $9,800 (includes “hoppers”)
Universal Windows UniShield Plus (Polaris?) - $9,600
Window World 4000 Series - $5,800

Our house is total electric (no gas or fireplace). Our monthly budget bill is $275. So that $275 monthly bill isn’t just energy costs, it also includes our refrigerators, lights, computers, TVs, etc. But just for the sake of argument let’s say that the whole bill is our energy cost. So even if we got a 30% energy savings with new windows that means that we would save $82.50 a month or $990 a year. So that means that it would take 10 years to reach “break even” for the higher priced windows. (But again, that is really stretching it since the full amount of $275 is much more than just energy costs.)

Therefore my Electrical and Energy Engineer friend is suggesting that I just get the cheap Window World windows since the reality is that half, at best, of our monthly electric bill is for energy costs. Therefore we would only be saving about $500 a year if we actually got a 30% energy savings. And a $500 a year savings would mean closer to 20 years to “break even”.

I would love to get additional input in all of this… other dealers in the St. Louis area as well as thoughts on brands as well as thoughts regarding cost vs. savings.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

This is a point where your friends logic doesn't quite work in the real world.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean you have to spend 2X as much as the WW quote, but the issues with WW installed windows are as much about long term quality, installation correctness, and all of the finite details that make a good install great vs. mediocre.

If you are just doing this for an energy savings undertaking, skip the windows and air seal and insulate. If, however, the windows are becoming non-functioning as well as inefficient, replacement may be in order.

The Simonton is a fine product, but the track record of big box store installations is quite hit or miss. Seems to be more miss than hit to be honest but the internet can have a was of dramatically over representing the failure rate.

Do you have any friends or family that have replaced their windows and have a direct referral to someone they liked and trust?

masterext
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#3 Post by masterext »

I totally disagree with what your very uninformed friend claims. His logic is twisted .
Window world is cheap for a reason not because “ they buy in volume”.

WindowsDirectCinci
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#4 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

There are more things to consider when replacing anything in the home (windows included) than how much money will I save. I put a lot of value in being able to sit on my couch next to a window and not be freezing my a$& off or feeling drafts. New windows should save you $ on energy cost, but it should also upgrade your home in appearance, functionality, efficiency, home value for resale, comfort, piece of mind and all this should come with worry free installation and proper service if needed. Window World can't provide these things being half the cost. If the main objective is going with the lowest price to get new windows than window world may be an option, but if you want the other benefits above i'd look elsewhere. No-one has some magic solution to where they can offer equal products for half the cost of the rest of the field. They are saving money on cheap caulk, cheap labor, products and lackluster service

kgriffer
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#5 Post by kgriffer »

Thanks for all your responses.

I don't believe that my friend is "very uninformed". He does earn a very good living providing energy savings plans to others including his own employer.

I believe that I didn't do a very good job in explaining his take. His take was simply if I'm ONLY replacing the windows to try to save money, well I really won't be saving money when you factor the up front cost versus the long term savings. And that has been confirmed with a couple of other honest people.

However, I understand it is not ALL about saving money. You don't buy new carpeting thinking that in the long term you will save money. So, I am still looking at getting new windows.

So the bids that I'm really looking at now are:
Soft-Lite Nirvana with an upgrade to Super Spacers - $4,850 (for just the 10 windows)
Polaris UltraWeld - $6,000 (for just the 10 windows)

Thoughts?

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Windows on Washington
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#6 Post by Windows on Washington »

Your friend is correct that if you are changing your window to ONLY save money, you will take a while to recoup that investment depending on the condition of your existing windows.

Of those two, I prefer the UltraWeld. Solid window, great air numbers, extremely strong, and a good company behind it.

The other product is very solid as well, but the UltraWeld is definitively better on some of the performance metrics that actually do translate to energy savings like air infiltration.

kgriffer
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#7 Post by kgriffer »

Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it as this can all become "information overload" after a while.

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toddinmn
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#8 Post by toddinmn »

kgriffer wrote:Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it as this can all become "information overload" after a while.
I would price out the Thermalweld Plus through the Polaris dealer. It is the model below the Ultraweld but I prefer it.

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HomeSealed
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

I agree with the other pros above. The difference in yearly energy savings will not be extraordinary between a cheap window and a great window, but that delta will increase over time as the cheaper units begin to fail due to poor construction. Quality and durability have to be considered. The great thing about looking at performance ratings specifically is that they not only tell you how the window will perform, but they are great indicators of quality as well. I do not exaggerate when I say that there are "10 year" vinyl windows that are junk after 10 years, and others that are built to last 30 plus years, and may ultimately only be replaced at that time due to technological advances. You have examples of each listed so far... Personally, I'd agree with the other comments on the Polaris Ultraweld. Very solid window.

kgriffer
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#10 Post by kgriffer »

Obviously there is more than just the performance numbers to be considered here.

Polaris UltraWeld
.27 U-factor
.27 SHGC
.41 VT
.02 AI (as low as with an upgraded low-e glass and krypton fills)


Polaris ThermalWeld
.29 U-value
.28 SHGC
.46 VT
? AI


Soft-Lite Nirvana (w/ Stainless Steel Intercept spacers)
.29 U-factor
.28 SHGC
? VT
.07 AI


I got the Soft-Lite numbers from their website. (And I would have the spacers upgraded to Super Spacers.) I couldn't find the Polaris numbers on their website and instead found them at the replacementwindowsprices dot com website. Anyway...

These numbers seem to be close enough to each other to not make a fuss over. However...

The point was made about longevity. And yes, if I'm going to spend this money I do want these windows to last me another 20 years just as the originals have. Granted, the originals do not provide much in energy efficiency. But they aren't broke, they don't leak, they are not fogged up and you can't feel a draft through them. You most definitely can feel the "rolloff" (is that what it is called?) from them. They are cold. Anyway...

So what makes the difference between these windows regarding longevity? Is it the insulated frames? Or metal reinforcement? Or what exactly? And if an extra $1,000 or so would guarantee me 20 years or more of life then that would be worth spending an extra $1,000 up front.

I have read quite a bit (or so I thought) about how the UltraWeld is awesome but to stay away from the ThermalWeld. So I have to ask toddinmn, why do you prefer the ThermalWeld?

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toddinmn
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#11 Post by toddinmn »

kgriffer wrote:Obviously there is more than just the performance numbers to be considered here.

Polaris UltraWeld
.27 U-factor
.27 SHGC
.41 VT
.02 AI (as low as with an upgraded low-e glass and krypton fills)


Polaris ThermalWeld
.29 U-value
.28 SHGC
.46 VT


? AI


Soft-Lite Nirvana (w/ Stainless Steel Intercept spacers)
.29 U-factor
.28 SHGC
? VT
.07 AI


I got the Soft-Lite numbers from their website. (And I would have the spacers upgraded to Super Spacers.) I couldn't find the Polaris numbers on their website and instead found them at the replacementwindowsprices dot com website. Anyway...

These numbers seem to be close enough to each other to not make a fuss over. However...

The point was made about longevity. And yes, if I'm going to spend this money I do want these windows to last me another 20 years just as the originals have. Granted, the originals do not provide much in energy efficiency. But they aren't broke, they don't leak, they are not fogged up and you can't feel a draft through them. You most definitely can feel the "rolloff" (is that what it is called?) from them. They are cold. Anyway...

So what makes the difference between these windows regarding longevity? Is it the insulated frames? Or metal reinforcement? Or what exactly? And if an extra $1,000 or so would guarantee me 20 years or more of life then that would be worth spending an extra $1,000 up front.

I have read quite a bit (or so I thought) about how the UltraWeld is awesome but to stay away from the ThermalWeld. So I have to ask toddinmn, why do you prefer the ThermalWeld?
The Thermalweld Plus is an all new window, replacing the Thermalweld which is now called the Dyna weld.
The U values are going to be pretty close regardless of the brand, it just depends on what options you add such as spacers , foam filling and glass packages.
The Soft-Lite is a pretty good window and should hold up just fine, but not really a fan of Zen. The install is going to trump any performance number differences between these Windows. I would look at the Windows in person and get details on the install. A lot of people overlook how the Windows get trimmed on the inside and capped on the outside. It's all in the details.

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HomeSealed
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#12 Post by HomeSealed »

Engineering and design of the product, materials used, manufacturing tolerances, etc... I'd place either of the polaris lines ahead of that softlite model which is a rather dated design despite the decent performance ratings. I'd agree with Todd on the install companies as well.

kgriffer
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#13 Post by kgriffer »

Thanks again for all the input.

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toddinmn
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#14 Post by toddinmn »

kgriffer wrote:Thanks again for all the input.
Let us know which way you go and how the project went.

Window4U (IL)
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Re: St. Louis Replacement Windows

#15 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Let us know what you went with and how it all went.

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