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 Post subject: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 11:44 pm 

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 am
Posts: 19
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I have seen a lot of trouble reports on the FixIt forum about Crestline. Most of them
were on their line of wooden windows. What about their Vinyl windows? Lot's of
complaints about leaking Crestline windows. Any validity to all these complaints?
I saw their windows in a Menards, and they look substancial. Their series 300
appears to have several chambers on a cross-sectional view. Crestline does not
use foam insulation on their vinyl windows. How much benefit is there from the
foam insulation? Some window companies offer it standard, while others supply
it as a priced option (not very much though). Crestline has given me the lowest
price quote so far. Other companies want to hit you with additional charges for
non-white color, foam insulation, argon gas, E coatings, while other companies provide them as standard on all their windows. I was surprised that people
complained about the Menards warantee, like looking for excuses not to honor it.
I have never had problems with other things I bought from Menards. Are they
any worse or better than the other window manufacturers?

Sherwin


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:13 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1194
Location: Northern Virginia
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More junk.


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:01 pm 

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 am
Posts: 19
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Can you be more specific. They looked good in the store, but maybe I am missing
something not visible.
Sherwin


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1194
Location: Northern Virginia
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Poor grade of vinyl, internal structure is weak, inconsistent quality, high air infiltration rate. No AAMA or WDMA structural testing. Care to guess why? The sooner you get out of the hardware stores, the sooner you will start to see better quality. Hardware stores aren't good places to shop for windows. It's like going to Walmart looking for quality furniture.


http://www.replacement-windows.com/windowbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=934&view=next


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:26 pm 

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 am
Posts: 19
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OK, all the things you mention are not apparent to a visible inspection in a store.

I looked at windows from Felco, Champion, and Advanced. I can't see any
apparent differences. Crestline uses double-wall construction, 3 1/4 fusion
welded frames and a steel-reinforced sash. The 300 series I am considering
has 3/4 inch glass. They use non-metalic spacers for better insulation. Am I
missing something?

So they don't have the blessing of all these associations. I don't know about
windows, but I have seen things labled with URL stickers that were pretty shody.

I am not trying to defend Crestline, but on the other hand they represent a big
savings, which I cannot just ignore.

Sherwin


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:06 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Posts: 1489
Location: Northern Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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sherwin wrote:
I am not trying to defend Crestline, but on the other hand they represent a big
savings, which I cannot just ignore.

Sherwin


Well I guess you've made your decision. Congrats on your great choice. You are right to ignore all this advice from these window professionals. They probably have some hidden agenda trying to keep you away from these inexpensive low end crap windows.
Come back next February and give us your review.


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:09 pm 

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 am
Posts: 19
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I am not ignoring advice from this board, just weighing it against my own observations. I have not decided yet to go with Crestline or with Advanced
Windows recommended by my installer.

If you look at Consumer Reports October 2007 report on window replacements,
Crestline was one of the few companies (along with Pella and Alside) that achieved a
an excellent rating for durability of vinyl windows, certainly a big item for me. Their U-factor was a respectible .29. The only thing I noticed on Crestline was that their crank hardware did not look as substantial as the Pella's cranks.

I will hold off on my reports of Crestline, if I go with them, until I see some of the
other people posting their experiences with them. By the way, do insulated vinyl windows offer a good payback over the non-insulated ones with several chambers?

Sherwin


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:37 pm
Posts: 71
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IIRC, Consumer Reports only rated windows that you could buy retail and install yourself. Many of the better-quality vinyl windows are only available from an installer who gets them from a wholesale building supply house or from the manufacturer's distributor network. So, the CR ratings are not worth a whole lot, in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:08 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1194
Location: Northern Virginia
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That's true. Many consumers actually think that CR goes out and tests all the available windows on the market and then reports which ones are best. The fact is that CR doesn't do any testing at all. They simply report on windows that are sold through hardware stores and then get the NFRC ratings.

This eliminates any custom only manufacturers and leaves the homeowner exposed to only windows made by large manufacturers who can supply HD and Lowes at a national level. So in essence you are relying on the Purchasing Dept. at large chain hardware stores to select windows for you. Keep in mind, they will only puchase what they feel they can sell and they know that a large percentage of their customers are only focused on price.

It almost borders on an unholy alliance between CR, HD, Lowes and others like them. Anyone who has read this and other sites like it knows exactly what I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:51 am 

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 am
Posts: 19
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OK, so Consumer Reports is guilty of a sin of omission.

However, what about the windows that they did report on? Can you say that the
Pella, Marvin, Crestline, etc. deserve the good ratings they got? If they are
of lessor quality than the windows from independent suppliers, what exactly makes
them so? Are you saying that only the windows sold in the big box stores have
problems, or all windows sold by the reported companies have problems?

Sherwin


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:10 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am
Posts: 3365
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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Pella - Architect or Designer series. No vinyl or any lesser grade window should be considered.

Marvin - all lines are very good but get progressively more expensive into the astronomical range in the Ultimate.

Crestline - I will defer to Sky's review


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:29 pm 

Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 am
Posts: 19
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All these general remarks about buy this and don't buy that are not informative.

What's wrong with vinyl windows?

Exactly what is in these 'acceptable' windows that makes them ok, while the
others should not be installed?

Sherwin


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:37 pm
Posts: 71
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You seem to be reaching for some wrong conclusions here.

There's nothing "wrong" with vinyl windows, per se. But, for instance, take Pella's. It's a low-end product, compared to other vinyl windows as well as Pella's other lines of windows. Pella put their name on it because it gives them an entry at the budget end of the price range, but Pella's name does not make it a good product. Meanwhile, Consumer Reports gave Pella's Impervia fiberglass windows a "best buy" rating. Last year I had a mix of the Impervia and Sunrise Restorations vinyl windows put on my house, and I can tell you that the Sunrise windows are prettier and more "featureful", cost less per opening, have better air leakage ratings, and are available with higher-performance glass packs than the Impervias. I don't think CR even bothered to review the Sunrise windows because, guess what, you can't buy them retail at your local Big Box hardware store.

As to what makes a cheap vinyl window cheap.... shoddy workmanship and poor quality control, like sloppy corner welds, that causes the windows to leak air. Poor designs (ask the pros what a "pocket sill" is, for instance). Poor quality vinyl and flimsy extrusions that won't hold up in the long run. Rather than just having thicker frames, better-designed windows have multiple chambers in the extrusions which gives better thermal performance as well as more strength, and some of them come with internal fiberglass or kevlar reinforcement too. Higher-end windows will have better hardware and/or screens, more sculpted/less blocky frame profiles, convenience features like night ventilation latches, more choices of interior and exterior colors, and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 1769
Location: Milwaukee & Madison area
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Skydawggy wrote:
Poor grade of vinyl, internal structure is weak, inconsistent quality, high air infiltration rate. No AAMA or WDMA structural testing. Care to guess why? The sooner you get out of the hardware stores, the sooner you will start to see better quality. Hardware stores aren't good places to shop for windows. It's like going to Walmart looking for quality furniture.


http://www.replacement-windows.com/windowbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=934&view=next


Sherwin, you keep asking the same questions, but as you can see above, Skydawgy answered them already in a very specific and correct manner, one of which all of the other pro's have concurred... WOW commented on Pella and Marvin (I agree) and everyone agrees that CR is worthless when it comes to windows.. What else are you looking for? It seeems like you are holding out hope that one of us will jump in and tell you about how great Crustline windows are, but it isn't going to happen because they just aren't.


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 Post subject: Re: Need an update on Crestline
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1194
Location: Northern Virginia
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OK Sherwin. Crestline is a wonderful window. You will be very happy with them. If you aren't I want you to let us know. I guarantee I will do whatever I can to make it right for you.

There, now you have heard what you wanted to hear. Go buy the Crestline Windows. I'm sure you will get exactly what you pay for and if not, you can report them to the BBB.


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