What is a good compromise?

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Confused in IN
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What is a good compromise?

#1 Post by Confused in IN »

I live in the Indianapolis, Indiana area. I am looking for replacement windows that will be a good compromise that can handle the low temperatures of winter and the high temperatures of summer.

My house faces North/South with 4 windows on the North side and 7 windows on the South side. There are also 2 picture windows on the North side of the house. To the best of my knowledge, the windows in my house are builder grade Single Hung double pane glass with no Low E coating. I am interested in replacing the 7 windows on the south side of the house.

I posted here on the board back in the February/March time frame. The advice I received at that time was to look for windows with a low U Factor and low Solar Heat Gain Coefficient. I guess the concern I have is that if the Solar Heat Gain Coefficient is very low, 0.24 for example, it will only allow 24% of the solar heat to pass through in the winter when I am trying to heat the house. Our utility bills in the winter are already considerably high and ideally I want to allow as much solar heat gain in the winter as possible. During the summer, obviously I want as little solar heat gain as possible. What seems to be a reasonable compromise? It seems like it costs less to cool the house in the summer than heat the house in the winter, so I suspect I should selecting windows to handle the winter weather more efficiently.

Also, has anyone got any feedback on the new Pella 350 series vinyl window? It comes with both a double and triple pane glass option and I believe the U Factor/SHGC can be as low as 0.19/0.24 for the triple pane glass with low E glass and Argon gas.

Thanks in advance,

Confused in IN

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Windows on Washington
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

You will forgive me if I question anything out of the Pella vinyl division for a while based on the horrible performance of the vinyl window that they gladly sell.

In terms of your SHGC question, in theory you will want a higher SHGC value on the South Elevation but so few homes are designed to take advantage of this fact (dark floors, good thermal mass, etc).

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HomeSealed
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#3 Post by HomeSealed »

I'm no Pella fanboy, but I've heard some pretty good things about the new 350 series. It looks pretty stout, and reportedly, they spent a lot of time and $$$ on it. Perhaps they are trying to rehab their image that has suffered in recent years?.... That being said, I don't have any firsthand experience with it, and from what I've seen, it costs buku bucks-- Like twice that of other high quality vinyl.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#4 Post by Windows on Washington »

HomeSealed wrote:I'm no Pella fanboy, but I've heard some pretty good things about the new 350 series. It looks pretty stout, and reportedly, they spent a lot of time and $$$ on it. Perhaps they are trying to rehab their image that has suffered in recent years?.... That being said, I don't have any firsthand experience with it, and from what I've seen, it costs buku bucks-- Like twice that of other high quality vinyl.
+1

I would start my search with the proven performers.

Confused in IN
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#5 Post by Confused in IN »

Let me address a couple of the comments of the responses.

Windows on Washington replied: In terms of your SHGC question, in theory you will want a higher SHGC value on the South Elevation but so few homes are designed to take advantage of this fact (dark floors, good thermal mass, etc).

I'm not sure how to interpret this comment. My understanding is that I want a product with a low U Factor. That normally means a low SHGC as well. For example, on window has a U Factor of 0.18 with a SHGC of 0.24. Should I consider a different glazing package that has a U Factor of 0.27 and SHGC of 0.28 or U Factor 0.28 and SHGC of 0.52 for the south side of the house.

Also, you comment about design elements such as dark floors, good thermal mass, etc. Are you suggesting these things are desirable or undesirable? How do you define good thermal mass? My home is built on a slab. Does that fit the definition of 'good thermal mass'?

HomeSealed wrote: That being said, I don't have any firsthand experience with it, and from what I've seen, it costs buku bucks-- Like twice that of other high quality vinyl.

I posted to this site back in the February - March time frame. Windows that were suggested were SoftLite, Gorrell, Okna, and perhaps one other. I had one company out that sells the SoftLite window in our area. It was a triple pane window with very good performance ratings. They were offering the window at about $1500 per unit but they offered a Buy 1, Get a second at 1/2 price. The Gorrell windows are available at a local building supply but I would have to use one of their contractors to have them installed. The cost of the Gorrell triple pane installed was about $500 per unit. The Pella 350 series has similar performance ratings to both of these windows and the cost installed was approximately $560 per unit. There is a possibility of a discount on the Pella window so it may be a bit cheaper than the quoted price.

I am just looking for a good quality window that will meet my heating/cooling needs that won't cost me both arms and both legs. Most people would have just gone out and had the first window they saw installed but not me. I have to research and agonize over these decisions to make sure I'm getting a good quality product at a fair price. In some ways, I wish I were among the blissful ignorant.

I'm not trying to defend or recommend the Pella brand. It just so happened that I called one of the folks I spoke with back in the March time frame and he indicated Pella was coming out with this new window that has much better performance ratings than the 20 series windows they were offering previously. This individual recommended another brand over the Pella when I spoke to him before.

I appreciate your input... I just want to be able to select a window that won't result in higher utility bills because they are already high enough to suit me.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#6 Post by Windows on Washington »

Confused in IN wrote:Let me address a couple of the comments of the responses.

Windows on Washington replied: In terms of your SHGC question, in theory you will want a higher SHGC value on the South Elevation but so few homes are designed to take advantage of this fact (dark floors, good thermal mass, etc).

I'm not sure how to interpret this comment. My understanding is that I want a product with a low U Factor. That normally means a low SHGC as well. For example, on window has a U Factor of 0.18 with a SHGC of 0.24. Should I consider a different glazing package that has a U Factor of 0.27 and SHGC of 0.28 or U Factor 0.28 and SHGC of 0.52 for the south side of the house.

Yes, in theory. U-Factor usually comes at the expense of SHGC because the added coats of low-e tend to block out more of the Sun's energy at the same time as providing more thermal resistance. The thermal data of U-Factor of 0.18 with a SHGC of 0.24 (without grids) is a pretty good balance of performance and still maintaining some of the Sun's free energy. You could opt for the higher SHGC package if the home is set up to take advantage of it. If not, go with the better thermal numbers.

Also, you comment about design elements such as dark floors, good thermal mass, etc. Are you suggesting these things are desirable or undesirable? How do you define good thermal mass? My home is built on a slab. Does that fit the definition of 'good thermal mass'?

Yes and no. Only if the floors are in the darker color range (carpet doesn't count) and you can get the thermal energy into the slab. Think of thermal mass as a big battery. In a perfect world for winter efficiency, we would let every bit of Sun's energy into the home, suck it up into things like walls, floors, and other thermal mass storage, and release it slowly over the course of the evening to heat the home for free. The issue with that SHGC glass range is that you get punished in the summer months. How many people do it in Passivhaus designs is have modifiable shading control (i.e. draperies, blinds, shades, etc) on the windows. Maximum free energy in the winter, controllable energy in the summer.

HomeSealed wrote: That being said, I don't have any firsthand experience with it, and from what I've seen, it costs buku bucks-- Like twice that of other high quality vinyl.

I posted to this site back in the February - March time frame. Windows that were suggested were SoftLite, Gorrell, Okna, and perhaps one other. I had one company out that sells the SoftLite window in our area. It was a triple pane window with very good performance ratings. They were offering the window at about $1500 per unit but they offered a Buy 1, Get a second at 1/2 price. The Gorrell windows are available at a local building supply but I would have to use one of their contractors to have them installed. The cost of the Gorrell triple pane installed was about $500 per unit. The Pella 350 series has similar performance ratings to both of these windows and the cost installed was approximately $560 per unit. There is a possibility of a discount on the Pella window so it may be a bit cheaper than the quoted price.

Companies that do buy one get the next one at 1/2 off or free are insulting the consumer's intelligence in my opinion. Find another Soft-Lite dealer if you liked the window. The Pella window performance...gulp...does not look bad and actually pretty competitive. Ask the Pella dealer about the structural performance numbers (Design Pressure, Air infiltration, etc).

I am just looking for a good quality window that will meet my heating/cooling needs that won't cost me both arms and both legs. Most people would have just gone out and had the first window they saw installed but not me. I have to research and agonize over these decisions to make sure I'm getting a good quality product at a fair price. In some ways, I wish I were among the blissful ignorant.

I think you are in analysis paralysis. The Pella window sounds like a decent product and as long as you your vetting on the company and their installed quality, I think you will be just fine.

I'm not trying to defend or recommend the Pella brand. It just so happened that I called one of the folks I spoke with back in the March time frame and he indicated Pella was coming out with this new window that has much better performance ratings than the 20 series windows they were offering previously. This individual recommended another brand over the Pella when I spoke to him before.

I appreciate your input... I just want to be able to select a window that won't result in higher utility bills because they are already high enough to suit me.

If you ultimate concern is utilities, windows may not be the most impactful solution. Have you had a certified auditor or building scientist look at the home. In an overwhelming majority of the homes, there is more potential improvement in areas that most customers don't consider.

masterext
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#7 Post by masterext »

The problem with Pella's vinyl windows weren't so much energy performance number
(although not very good), it was much more to do with the flimsy/ low quality design. Unless Pella addressed their very low quality design, they could have the best u factor in the world and I still would never recommend them.

Confused in IN
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#8 Post by Confused in IN »

Thank you for your responses.

Where would I look to find a certified home auditor to determine what actions we can take to maximize our efficiency and minimize our expenses?

Also, the Pella 350 Series window is being offered at Lowes. It is a special order item for them. If you are interested in looking at the window to determine the quality of construction, I am sure you could stop by there to see the window.

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HomeSealed
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

masterext wrote:The problem with Pella's vinyl windows weren't so much energy performance number
(although not very good), it was much more to do with the flimsy/ low quality design. Unless Pella addressed their very low quality design, they could have the best u factor in the world and I still would never recommend them.
It is a completely different product from anything else that they sell. Again, I'm not vouching for it, but from what I have seen (and heard) it looks pretty good. Check it out on their website..... Confused, that price seems very good from the #'s that I've heard.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#10 Post by Windows on Washington »

Confused in IN wrote:Thank you for your responses.

Where would I look to find a certified home auditor to determine what actions we can take to maximize our efficiency and minimize our expenses?

Also, the Pella 350 Series window is being offered at Lowes. It is a special order item for them. If you are interested in looking at the window to determine the quality of construction, I am sure you could stop by there to see the window.
Search for an energy auditor or building scientist in your area.

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HomeSealed
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Re: What is a good compromise?

#11 Post by HomeSealed »

Windows on Washington wrote:
Confused in IN wrote:Thank you for your responses.

Where would I look to find a certified home auditor to determine what actions we can take to maximize our efficiency and minimize our expenses?

Also, the Pella 350 Series window is being offered at Lowes. It is a special order item for them. If you are interested in looking at the window to determine the quality of construction, I am sure you could stop by there to see the window.
Search for an energy auditor or building scientist in your area.
+1... If energy savings are your primary goal, it would be in your best interest to get an audit done. That way you can prioritize according to value. Windows may or may not be near the top, depending on the state of your home.

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