Sash Kit Questions

[oryan_dunn]

Hi,
I'm looking to replace the double hung windows in my home. I have 16 double hung and 3 picture windows. The primary reason for replacement is seal failure in the IGUs. The house was built in 1941 and the windows were replaced with Marvin Tilt Pack windows in 1981-2. Secondary reasons for replacement are the vinyl jambliners are brittle and it's tough to tilt the sash in, and usually tilting the upper sash will result in chipping and cracking of the vinyl jambliner. They also leak some air at the check rail, not because they check rails don't meet perfectly (they do), but the pile weather strip (dust fuzzy according to Marvin) between the sash tracks on the jambliner at the checkrail have deteriorated. If I didn't need the glass repaired, I'd most likely just get new jambliner assemblies and weather stripping, as that seems all that would be needed.

It seems that 'teh interwebz' opinion on sash kits is quite negative. However, my house seems to have been built exceptionally well, and most every tradesman that has been to my house has commented on how well it was built. All the existing window frames are square and there is no rotting in the frames. The exterior wood has been well maintained. I currently have storm windows, but they are in somewhat poor shape, with most of the plastic hardware bits broken and the pile weather stripping falling apart. I really can't wait to get rid of them.

I've seen some opinions from installers that state that they do not install sash kits without storm windows and others that say with any IGU window that a storm window is a bad idea. To me, it seems that if I were an installer installing a sash kit, I'd recommend a storm as well, since most window frames are not in perfect shape nor square. However, it also seems that storm windows can lead to premature seal failure (I'm not an expert on windows, this is just another opinion I've seen on 'teh interwebz').

With 7 years of history on these 32yr old sash kits, I have decent hopes for new sash kits. I know pocket replacements would normally be the wiser choice (and perhaps still are), I'd rather not lose the glass space and have the larger hassle of installation.

I'm on a bit of a budget and I plan on doing the work myself. If I didn't already have sash kits, I probably wouldn't have heard of them or even considered them, and after reading all that I have, if my windows were out of square at all I wouldn't consider them. When I pull the old jambliners, I'm going to make sure the original weight cavity was properly insulated.

These are kits that I'm able to get locally:
Eagle Sash Kit
JELD-WEN Tradition Plus Sash Kit
JELD-WEN Siteline EX Sash Kit
JELD-WEN Custom Sash Kit
Marvin Tilt Pack
Lincoln Sash Kit (closest place that sells it is over an hour away)

It's quite challenging discerning the differences between the JELD-WEN lines. All three use a different jambliner, the Siteline EX uses extruded aluminum, and the custom has sash retainer latches to tilt instead of a compression jamb. With the same options and priced at Home Depot, the Siteline EX is actually 15% cheaper than the Tradition Plus. The Lincoln kit is appealing because it also has the sash retainer latches. Both Menards and Home Depot said the exact same options on a JELD-WEN custom kit would end up making the cost almost double (and I can't justify that for a couple tilt latches).

The Marvin would be nice, but it's almost double the cost of the Siteline quote, so it's probably out of the running. I'm going to go to the place that sells the Eagle tomorrow to see what they can do.

Currently, the frontrunner is the Siteline EX kit. The Home Depot quote for 16 windows with the specs listed below as well as the associated JELD-WEN aluminum full screen for the sash kits is $6,600 without any discounts or tax. I've been led to believe that it's quite common to get a 10-15% discount, and I'm in no hurry, so I can wait for deals and replace a few windows at a time. I can get it for slightly less, but I'd rather not spend the time taping, priming, and painting the interior.

tl;dr
1. Does anyone here have experience or comments on the differences between the JELD-WEN Tradition Plus and Siteline EX Sash Kits (particularly with the jambliners)?
2. Any other kits I should consider?
3. Should I use storm windows? (All those listed do have full screen options for the sash kits, it's just damn hard to find info on it. I plan on getting full screens for my windows).
4. I'm also currently exploring the option of replacing all the jambliners and weather strips, and am looking at the feasibility of buying new IGUs and installing them myself (this is a crazy option, but I've got to consider all options). I think the IGUs in my current windows are 3/8" thick, which seems to limit replacement options.

Desired specs for the windows:
• Brown clad exterior
• 13 windows have white paint interior, 3 have cherry (or cherryish stain)
• Antique Brass hardware
• white jambliners
• Standard Low-E 270 w/Argon Glass
• 7° sill angle
• Both bathroom window's bottom sash has obscure glass
• Sash limiters

It's a long first post, and I appreciate any feedback.

Regards,
Ryan

[Windows on Washington]

Ryan,

If the home is built well and the openings are true, there is no reason you can use sash kits. The primary reason that I don't recommend them as a standard is because most DIY'ers lack the experience (there is a bit of nuance to each system and doing them right) and most homes don't meet the aforementioned criteria.

If you home and skill set make sash kits and option, they are a great one and will work very well.

I would not use anything from Jeld-Wen and especially when you have a Marvin and Eagle option on the table. I know the Marvins aren't cheap but having your 1980's windows last 30+ years should be a ringing endorsement of that company and all of my observations show that window to be the best of the group in that list.

[oryan_dunn]

WoW, thanks for the reply.

I have about $4,500 up front to use, and will finance the rest at 0% if possible. The quote for the Marvin Tilt Pack with similar options comes to $9,228 before tax (vs the $6,600 for the JELD-WEN Siteline EX). Replacing all windows at once at that price won't be possible. I had a second Marvin dealer stop by, and he said he is unable to order Tilt Packs (which seems odd, like more a company policy than not actually being able to order them).

Have you had direct experience with the JELD-WEN sash kits? It seems most all manufacturers use Cardinal IGUs, then with a sash kit, that leaves the sash frame and jambliner. I've poured over the installation instructions and parts lists for the Marvin and JELD-WEN trying to see what would make the Marvin a more expensive window. They certainly seem very comparable.

Do you have any suggestions on using storm windows?

I'd really like to see each of the sash kits I've listed in person before I buy, but no store has a display. Even the Marvin dealer didn't have an example, though he did give me a name of a person that they installed a house full of Tilt Packs in recently. No matter what I decide, I'll buy one window and attempt to install it first before I buy the rest.

[HomeSealed]

I have experienced nothing but problems with sash kits over the years. Very tricky installation, poor overall performance. Yes you can save some money, but like the other dealer that you mentioned, I no longer off that option as I have had too many clients dissatisfied with the results, regardless of brand. I will say given that you have them already, your chances for success are probably higher than most, but I'd seriously consider your options.
Regarding the differences in product, you will have a hard time discerning the differences at first glance, as they generally look similar, appear to use the same materials, etc. The differences fall in the engineering, manufacturing tolerances and quality, and in some instances in the materials used. These could included a higher grade of wood, thicker gauge aluminum, superior finish coating, higher grade fasteners, and so on and so forth. As WoW stated, the Marvin and Eagle are superior options.

[toddinmn]

I have sold many sash-kits and have had very good luck with them. The biggest problems i see stem from the install itself and the user not being familiar with the way they tilt in , the way they go back in if removed or the added force needed to lift, lower and tilt the sashes.
I think a storm window is essential for this type of window since the tracks and the foam backing on them don't hold up to the elements and will also preserve the sashes made from wood that is not what it once was.

The storm will also boost the U-value, the air infiltration number,and the STC rating by a fair margin.

I would have no problem using the Site-Line EX especially at that price difference. The Jeld-Wens and Eagle use an internal glazing bead which I really dislike, but that is purely aesthetic.

Since your storm windows are in need of repair or replacement which will only add to the cost you may want to reconsider an insert type window.You could also repair the Marvin's since replacing glass is pretty easy after you do one.









I would have no problem installing the Jeld-Wen Site-Line EX especially at that price, would not use there lower end stuff though.The Jeld-Wens and Eagle have the glazing bead on the inside of the window which i don't care for purely for aesthetic reason

[oryan_dunn]

Thanks Todd and HomeSealed for the input. I feel that I am confident and competent enough to properly install a sash kit, but then perhaps I'm the guy who's house you come to in a year to put new pocket windows in. I have helped a friend install pocket vinyl windows on a house we fixed up back when I was in college, so I do have a small bit of experience.

I've not completely ruled out the pocket replacement, but I'm concerned with the smaller amount of glass and what the pocket would look like from the outside. I don't plan on cladding my entire frame since the existing wood and wood shutters are in good shape. In a way, I wish I had some problem with my frame to make the choice much more clear between a sash kit and a pocket window.

I have contacted two local glass shops. For a 26" x 26" 1/2" IGU, Low-E w/o Argon, they both quoted ~$70 cash & carry (and ~$20-30 for them to install if I bring in a sash). Both places were kinda 'meh' when I asked about Argon saying it wasn't a wise use of money. One place sells Thompson IG and I forgot to ask at the other. Going the restoration route, would nominally be $140 + supplies (glazing, etc.) + replacement jambliners and weather strips. I'm still waiting to hear back on the Marvin replacement part costs.

Looking on the Marvin site, I also saw that there is another Marvin dealer here in town, so I forwarded my details to them and we'll see what they will come back with on a quote. I've got a feeling it'll be the same as or higher than the first place.

I did look at a JELD-WEN at Home Depot again today. I hadn't noticed that glazing bead until you'd mentioned... grr, . I guess it's not that important to me since I hadn't noticed till you mentioned it, but that is a knock against the JELD-WEN and Eagle. I also dropped off my quote request at the Eagle dealer; it'll be interesting to see the quote from them.

I will say, figuring out what to do here has been harder than researching and shopping for a new-to-me (used) car.

[Windows on Washington]

+1 to Todd's advice.

Internal glazing bead can be problematic depending on the window.

I would also encourage you to look and re-consider what a narrow profile insert might look like in the home. Most slim profile insert windows actually a net a larger feeling opening as compared to a single pane wood - storm window combination. While the actually measurement might still be smaller, the fact that the storm encroaches on the visible off angle glass space is usually more intrusive than an insert feels.

[oryan_dunn]

WoW, can you elaborate on why an internal glazing bead could be problematic?

I looked at the Marvin Ultimate Insert, it looks like I'd lose about 1" of glass on either side with that. Plus, for the same options, it'd probably be more expensive than the Tilt Packs.

What narrow profile inserts do you recommend?

When I first started looking at new windows, I had Lowe's quote me on the Pella 850 series. Their quote was missing a few things, primarily the prefinished white interior and sash lifts. It came to $8,287, but through their QSP could get me a 12% discount, bringing it to $7,293 before tax.

[Windows on Washington]

The lack of a dam leg on the fixed part of the sash to the interior means that some of them can weep water on the glazing bead size. It is also better to put the glazing bead to the more pressurized side of the window.

Doesn't mean they will leak but the potential does exist.

I know what you are saying about the insert but you have to look at the window as it is in place now. With the exterior storm, if you are looking through the window even the slightest bit off angle, the storm encroaches into the viewable area far more than a replacement window will.

[TheWindowNerd]

I also am not a fan of sash replacement kits. I do not think that you normally get the desired performance out of them.
Also not a JW fan.
I would suggest the insert replacements as the best energy tight solution. As Eric said you can check the VG(visible glass) of both products, insert compared to triple track SW.
I am not aware of any warranty disclaimers about SW over sash pacts, but you should verify with mfg.

[Guy]

I've had luck with the Tilt-Pac and I've had my share of headaches. They are a very interesting application. Living and working in MN makes things easier for me to deal with Marvin Products. If I don't like it I go to their plant and educate myself. No matter what way you go it all comes down to the installation. Since I'm OCD and ADD I can waste to much time on one window trying to make it perfect. Most of us old timers are our own worst critic. If I don't like what it looks like I'll tear it out and start over again. I think that's why my hair is graying! Today's new technologies are the best way to test your installation. I use a blower door to test in and out. I'll find any leakage in any window I install. Storm windows are a great investment in certain applications. They will shut down some air and water infiltration and also cut down on Sound Transfer. The bottom line to all of this is you have to live with your choice, we don't! Choose what will make you happy. If you feel comfortable installing the product, go for it! I never belittle anyone for trying! If you run into an issue give a shout. Someone will be here! Good Luck!!!

[tru_blue]

Ryan I sold thousands of both sash kits and various brands of pocket replacements. In fact I have both types in my own home. If both types are installed properly I feel the pocket replacements will still be slightly better, but like some others have said the sash kits will work just fine if you have perfectly square openings. And the sash kits are an easier DIY project.

I was intrigued by your question as to whether you should get storm windows. That decision should be based on what you hope to achieve with your windows. Having storm windows somewhat negates the ease of cleaning. But they do make the windows about 3 degrees warmer during the cold months and provide additional air infiltration resistance. I'm more inclined to recommend storms if you're getting sash kits (many times because they will eventually need it ). I generally don't recommend storm windows if you're getting energy-efficient pocket replacement windows. They don't need them.

[TheWindowNerd]

SW on a pocket replacement?
How do you get the SW sash to clear the opening for service or cleaning?

[toddinmn]

They are talking about storms on a sash-kit, there is no problem with clearance on these unless they did an overlap install with the storm but they still usually work. Pocket insert could be installed with storm but would have to be sized for the insert. Marvin and Andersen have there own storm options, even Renewal by Andersen has been know to mount other brand of storms on there windows in these parts.
You'd also lose visible glass space with a vinyl when viewed from an angle due to the screen frame.

[oryan_dunn]

I thank you all for your replies.

Some comments since my last post.

I looked at the JELD-WEN Tradition Plus display window at my local Home Depot, and that's where I saw the glazing bead. Their display window looked about as old as the store (and the store has been there for a while). Over the past weekend, I visited a Menards that had a much more modern window display, with a Siteline Ex double hung unit. As far as I could tell, there was no visible glazing bead, and the window seemed pretty well made to my somewhat untrained eye.

I finally got the quote back from the lumber yard that carries Eagle. There are a few things that I think need to be revised, but the base price for the sash kits seemed very reasonable and in line with the JELD-WEN Siteline Ex from HD. The cost for the 16 windows was around $6k. The outrageous part is that for the 16 full screens, each ran about $95, for a total of about $1,500. The 16 full screens from JELD-WEN/HD ran $590. The Eagle sash kits are the only ones that seem to have an install that is meaningfully different than the JELD-WEN and Marvin. They use a sill dam and a head stop that looks like they may seal a bit better.

I think I've decided if I get new windows that I want some SDLs on the top sash, so I figure that'll up the cost on the quotes, and I assume it'll be approximately the same price for all the different windows.

As for the storm windows, if I went the sash kit route, I'd likely replace one window that's in poor shape and remove the current storm window. I'd think that as long as the jambliner is tight, and the weatherstrips seal, then it should be fine (I may be completely wrong). The window that's in poor shape currently is on the side of the house that gets the most wind, so it'd be a good test. I really don't want storm windows, and I'd like a full screen.

I also asked the Eagle dealer to work the same quote as a pocket replacement.

For clad pocket replacements, it seems my options are Eagle, Pella, Marvin, and the Siteline Ex, with the Marvin most likely being outside my price range. Someone mentioned a low-profile pocket replacement. What brand would that be? Also, any other brands I should consider? I still have the Pella quote from Lowe's. Sometime this week, I plan to stop by the actual Pella store to see if their price is any better.

I've also read that you shouldn't buy windows from the big box stores, but to me, it seems if you're getting the same window, say a Pella Architect series, it should be the same window from the Pella store as from Lowe's.

Again, thank you for all the input.