Storms with new Inserts vs Sash Kits vs Full Frame

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brinyside
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Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:47 pm

Storms with new Inserts vs Sash Kits vs Full Frame

#1 Post by brinyside »

We are thinking of replacing our 30 year old double hung windows in a 1912 house. They are double pane wood tilt-in sash kits that were installed in the mid-80's.

There are two problems we see with insert-type windows. 1) loss of glass area; and 2) based on measurements of a model Anderson Woodwright 400 series tilt-wash, it looks like the sill overlay extends out too far and we would have to toss our very good Harvey storm windows. This makes us nervous because we do not have insulation in a lot of the walls. When we put the old sashes in, we stuffed fiberglass insulation into the weight pockets, but couldn't get full coverage due to the size of the opening in the jamb.

So, even though our windows are leaky, we feel more secure having storms and wonder if removing the storms will actually increase energy loss, even with new insert windows. Plus, we probably get a slight noise reduction from the storms. On the flip side, it would be really nice to not have storms that ice up during the winter due to heat loss into that area.

Has anyone had experience installing an insert window and keeping the existing storms? How is it done? Do you have to cut the replacement sill back? Are there other insert manufacturers that make a window that would work for this application?

We could go with full-frame windows, since we could add more insulation and not end up with reduced glass area, but it is obviously a much more involved undertaking. We would also lose the slight noise reduction we get from the storms. Cost is not an absolute deal-breaker, but we'd like to keep it under control.

At this point, there are really just two windows that are non-operational due to broken balances/liners, but we see more of that in our future. Replacing those two with sash kits is another option. We had fun installing them way back when, but would have our builder do it this time.

Thanks for any perspective you can offer.

WindowsDirectCinci
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:46 pm

Re: Storms with new Inserts vs Sash Kits vs Full Frame

#2 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

If you intend to keep the storm windows, you will need a window that has a 3 1/4 jamb width. Basically any vinyl window would fit this and several wood manufactures could possibly accommodate this as well. I'm not really sure what would be the purpose of keeping the storm window though. If you replace with a nice window unit it would provide enough insulation where a storm would not be needed. Also there would be much less to clean. As far as losing glass by doing an insert, some manufacturers have smaller frames than others so you can keep it at a minimum. If you think that it will bother you, do a full frame replacement with triple pane and you have everyone of your issues/concerns addressed.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Storms with new Inserts vs Sash Kits vs Full Frame

#3 Post by Windows on Washington »

brinyside,

Keep in mind that many manufacturers will forbade putting a storm over an insulated window with Low-e. There are valid concerns about trapped heat and material failure in those situations.

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toddinmn
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Re: Storms with new Inserts vs Sash Kits vs Full Frame

#4 Post by toddinmn »

WindowsDirectCinci wrote:If you intend to keep the storm windows, you will need a window that has a 3 1/4 jamb width. Basically any vinyl window would fit this and several wood manufactures could possibly accommodate this as well. I'm not really sure what would be the purpose of keeping the storm window though. If you replace with a nice window unit it would provide enough insulation where a storm would not be needed. Also there would be much less to clean. As far as losing glass by doing an insert, some manufacturers have smaller frames than others so you can keep it at a minimum. If you think that it will bother you, do a full frame replacement with triple pane and you have everyone of your issues/concerns addressed.

To get a perspective, a vinyl window with narrow sash will have about 3" less glass in width, the height will be about the same maybe lose 1/2" or so. You could use some 1 1/2 painters tape and put the sides of the glass to for a visual. Most wood inserts will lose more than this. Some people are density to glass loss so it is hard to gauge ones reaction. A full frame replacement. Can get spendy depending on your millwork. The existing millwork may be reused but some times it is not easy. I'd decide if glass loss is acceptable them decide which way you want to roll.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Storms with new Inserts vs Sash Kits vs Full Frame

#5 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Couple of things I see:
No storms with insert replacements. First they will not fit, the total thickness of most insert window even if designed for a 3 1/4" sash pocket is beyond the storm window stop in its total projection. Second any of you remember how to get SW sash out to clean or service them? The storm sash will not clear the insert replacement for removal.

Most insert windows will end up with one square foot of visible glass loss.

As most know I am a huge fan of full frame replacement, whether you use a vinyl window with a jamb extension on it or a "new construction window".
Based on the reason for your project I would suggest a high performance vinyl window as they will give you the best energy savings and durability too.

theWindowNerd.

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