Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

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Stardog
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:24 am

Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#1 Post by Stardog »

This forum has been very helpful. After spending 4 months searching for replacement window options, I have a few observations from my experience that I wanted to share. My intent in sharing is to ask the community if there are any resources that can help make the experience easier. I have broken down my experience into 5 areas of challenge. I will attempt to be as nonjudgmental as possible in sharing my observations.

For context. We recently purchased a 30 year all brick home with original wood casement windows. We have determined that many of the glass panels, hardware, and wood has been damaged. In addition we are desiring to replace all of the dark wood with a light product like vinyl to brighten the house. The scope is 29 windows.

1 - it is unclear what my vendor choices are in my area, what vendor is a quality vendor.
Our first step in the window replacement process was to identify who offered what windows. We contacted friends, checked advertising, Angie’s list, and used websites that are created to set up leads with various dealers. In every case the initial relationship is with the installer, or retailer. For us it became very unclear who manufactures their products.

After 4 months we have learned that some brands are very regional. Top quality windows like Okna, soft-lite, Kensington, and other favorite brands are severely limited or totally unavailable in my region. It has been difficult because you have to spend time talking with the installers/resellers to understand who sells what.


2. Rebranding makes it unclear who sells what windows

Similar to number 1. We have spoken to numerous companies now. Every salespersons like to make it appear as if product is theirs only, unless they are a remodeler. In the beginning we saw many sales pitches. Blowtorches on glass. Standing on the window.

We spent two months before we realized that many of the products being sold were coming from the same manufacturers.

3. NFRC window ratings are difficult to find online

There is much discussion of the glass features, and some salespeople are able to talk up their U factor and leakage ratings. The forum here has many specific posts comparing AL or .01 on one window to AL or .23 on another. This is awesome.

Unfortunately the window manufacturers rarely offer this data online anywhere. There is no online resource I have found to provide the NFRC numbers outside of the NFRC website. Unfortunately the NFRC website only provides the most basic air leakage information (everything is listed at <=.3) and the window rating data is listed under vendor-specific product names/code numbers, making it hard to identify what product has which rating.

4. Many salespeople don’t know their product.

Salespeople will bring the product slicks, and samples for a different product and say it is the product they are showing you. Many salespeople answer yes when you ask if the product is co-extruded to find out later they only offer a painted exterior, for example. The just want to “stick it in your hole” so to speak.

5. It is difficult to “see” the product

Only a handful of the local supply houses keep window product on hand to look at in person. Rarely did an in home presenter have the right product with them to match the lines they sell. Rarely has a salesperson been able to produce a casement sample to look at in person and ask questions. Online searches for real life pictures of windows or video reviews seem similarly nonexistent. If I am going to spend $30,000 on a project, it is fair to expect to actually see the product that will be installed before having it put in the house.


After spending around 4 months, talking to about 10-20 companies, many quotes, and lots of reading, we feel far better informed on our decision.

Maybe not every homeowner is as invested in the process as we have been, but for those that are it seems that the replacement window sales model is designed to keep it the homeowner uninformed.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

I am not sure you will find much movement on items 1 & 2 depending on who you are dealing with. Much of that misdirection is really designed around folks being able to saturate a given market without the perception of overlap.

Perhaps there is some misdirection in there with regards to "you can only get this product from me" type of sales, but there is, potentially, some truth in there if they are the only vendor of that specific branded product.

I get it...its a thin theory on how to arrive at that.

3 & 4 are probably never going to change. I have trouble tracking stuff down on the NFRC and I have been doing this for nearly 15 years. On the sales person front, many are technically not up to speed with the very careful and research customers. This is pretty standard across all industries. When I go to look at a car, I usually know more about the engineering and details than does my salesperson.

5 should be a no brainer. Everyone should have samples or at least representative sections of the options on those samples. Not sure why you had issues with that, but that is the easiest of the 5 to fix.

As with many things, caveat emptor. You are ultimately responsible for doing the research when you buy something unless you are dealing with someone that you trust. Thankfully for us...its the reason that once someone does all the heavy research lifting and buys from us, they buy their roof, siding, doors, insulation, sunrooms, etc. from us down the road.

Once you find a contractor that you like and trust, hopefully they will be able to take care of the home for you for years to come.

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toddinmn
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#3 Post by toddinmn »

Where are you located?
What brands have looked at so far?
Finding u values can be difficult because some of the companies so many options that effect it.Things like foam filling , spacers, glass thickness and low-E coatings , different kinds of Low-E placed on different surfaces can all change this, and of course this can all change between the different lines and types of Windows. Numbers on air infiltration can be difficult even for companies that list them. Just ask them for there most current test results and you will see.
The Pro's here can help you sift through the madness.

Stardog
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:24 am

Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#4 Post by Stardog »

We are near Louisville.

Brands we have reviewed
Revere
Alside
Wincore
Champion
Pella
Anderson
Simonton
Okna ( America’s window, not window world)
Soft-Lite (zen)

Our full house quotes are very close between Pella, Simonton, Wincore and soft-lite. Everyone wants around $1000 per window with a full frame replacement.
Last edited by Stardog on Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#5 Post by Windows on Washington »

Full Frame or full tear out?

If folks are specifying a full tear out, why are they specifying that?

Stardog
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#6 Post by Stardog »

Full frame is at our request. I am not sure of the terms, but we are requesting go back to the rough opening and start again.

We are remodeling, and replacing all of our interior trim, adding sills to windows that don’t have them, and have a fair amount of wood rot around many of the existing wood casement frames.

It’s surprising to have a Wincore, Champion, Anderson and Pella quote within $2000 of each other. Much of what I read tells me that Anderson and Pella would be unbelievably higher, but not really seeing it.

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toddinmn
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#7 Post by toddinmn »

Sounds like good reason for full tear out. I did not know window World uses Okna, kind of surprised.
The top windows are the Soft-Lite and Okna. ones to avoid are Pella and Andersen assuming it's there vinyl lines.
A little torn since the top performers are being sold by companies with questionable histories. I'd see if anyone else carries those brands perhaps.

masterext
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#8 Post by masterext »

I am quite certain window world does not sells okna, you may be confusing them with “america’s window” who are in Louiville and do offer okna.

Stardog
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#9 Post by Stardog »

masterext wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:33 am I am quite certain window world does not sells okna, you may be confusing them with “america’s window” who are in Louiville and do offer okna.
You are totally right. It’s amiericas window that sells Okna but only insert style replacement.

Window world makes their own windows. Or that’s what they said when the sales guy did all of his circus tricks at our house.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#10 Post by HomeSealed »

Stardog wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:19 am
masterext wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:33 am I am quite certain window world does not sells okna, you may be confusing them with “america’s window” who are in Louiville and do offer okna.
You are totally right. It’s amiericas window that sells Okna but only insert style replacement.

Window world makes their own windows. Or that’s what they said when the sales guy did all of his circus tricks at our house.
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Stardog
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#11 Post by Stardog »

HomeSealed wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:28 pm
Stardog wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:19 am
masterext wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:33 am I am quite certain window world does not sells okna, you may be confusing them with “america’s window” who are in Louiville and do offer okna.
You are totally right. It’s amiericas window that sells Okna but only insert style replacement.

Window world makes their own windows. Or that’s what they said when the sales guy did all of his circus tricks at our house.
d2.jpg
Oh wow. Well, that reinforces my Problem #2 of shopping for windows.

WindowsDirectCinci
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#12 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

Not sure if they're a consideration or not so I'll just clarify the Louisville Window World 100% sells MI windows. I just visited the home show down their. The franchises have the option to choose which one of MI and alside they want to offer

WindowsDirectCinci
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#13 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

Stardog is there any Sunrise dealers down there? They have some great options made specifically for Full Tear Installations.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#14 Post by HomeSealed »

Good call WD, I forgot that some of their stores are selling MI now... Do you know what the breakdown is between the two brands overall nationwide? Just curious

WindowsDirectCinci
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Re: Why is shopping for windows so difficult as a homeowner?

#15 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

I have no Idea what the split is the WW in my market sells alside. I think some stores also carry both.

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