Why not full-frame versus inserts?

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Why not full-frame versus inserts?

#1 Post by dhm » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:02 pm

I live in an old 1930's brick house in Chicago, plaster walls, with crummy wood trim and sills painted over many times. The Pella salesman was quite eager to discuss both inserts and full frame replacement, the full frame being attractive to me because I can now have natural wood finish trim and sills, and the price difference was not outrageous.
Everybody else (Andersen Renewal, Marvin installer) seems quite incredulous that I would do full frame replacement - citing cost, mess, and the claim that "nobody does it." What is going on? Am I missing some facts about full frame replacement? I am quite prepared to accept that it will take longer, and that some plaster might need repair, but what else is there?
DHM in Chicago

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#2 Post by FenEx » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:22 pm

Outside of it being an environmental hazard... not much. I can assure you that there is probably "atleast" 2-3 coats of lead based paint in there. To do it properly and LEGALLY a licensed removal team would have to be brought in at a cost of probably $5,000-$10,000 before the new windows could be installed. I'm thinkin' the pella guy forgot to mention this and the others didn't even want to quote it as you would fall off your chair.

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#3 Post by uto » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:52 pm

This is one of the few times lead based paint concerns has been mentioned on this board. Glad to see that this issue has finally seen the light of day to sales people and installers.

Any home with pre 1978 paint will have lead based paint and will come under the EPA requirements for sales persons and contractors.

We have run into inspectors where even the small inside stop on wood hung windows must be carefully removed and replaced with new using their safe working guidelines.

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#4 Post by handyman19619 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:29 pm

$10,000 for what? A paper suit, some plastic, A resperator and a HEPA vac
Im in the wrong business. I will admit though the insurance and workers comp is very pricey and its not something I let my younger installers do if they are still planning on having children in the future. Just the amounts of lead dealt with on a easy wood drop vinyl installation are bad enough.
The amounts of coal dust in some older homes. Along with asbestos fibers is in itself a hazard.
Noone wants to wear a mask until they see whats in it at the end of that first day. Then there are no more questions on why.
I would do the full replacement to if you can afford it. Believe it or not your home will smell better too. Just something I have noticed. Years of smoke, coal dust, mold, pet hair, dander,lead, GONE. Old wood windows do smell. (also the remnants of long gone insects)or are they?

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#5 Post by Guy » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:44 am

That is crazy we have never talked about this before. I thought we were the only state in the Nation pushing these issues. So I never brought it out. It's like opening a can of hornets. Minneapolis and St. Paul really stress the lead paint abatement in a huge way. I have a great asset here as my Uncle is an inspector in Minneapolis. If I have a question he comes out and scopes the job up for us. On a personal note I don't think it's as bad as they say. I just have to follow the rules. We just back cut all the inter connecting joints with a razor knife and remove it carefully. Then it's bagged before disposal in a proper landfill area. Check with your local municipality to find an inspector who can give you the information you need. This is an area overlooked by many installers. If caught not doing it right can bring huge issues for the contractor and the home owner!

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#6 Post by ProfX » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:01 pm

Man guys, I hate to say this but I've been in the business going on eight years, and I've never even thought twice about the dangers from lead paint. I know I've had to replace hundreds if not thousands of windows with pre 1978 paint on the inside trim, blindstop, parting bead stop, etc. I've never seen anything in any insurance policy stating to wear masks or what precautions to take when working with these materials. What dangers exist? I know there are some, I just have never really worried to much about them. What precautions or safety equipment do you guys use regurally?

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#7 Post by Guy » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:44 pm

Sources of lead in the environment include leaded gasoline, house and car paint, metal refineries (smelters), and the production of lead storage batteries. Lead can cause severe damage to the human brain or nervous system, particularly in children. It can also cause digestive problems, and some chemicals that contained lead have been shown to cause cancer in animals. (I think I ate to many paint chips as a kid)

Lead-based paint can lead to serious health problems. Dust and chips can crack off the paint in tiny particles, but even a small amount of lead ingested into the system of a child or pregnant woman can have a serious impact. This is why we cut along the paint line when removing anything. Then the paint won't chip and be come air born. If a child swallows or inhales lead, it can cause learning disabilities and disorders of the nervous system. Children are at the greatest risk of lead poisoning because their hand-to-mouth activities allows them to ingest lead dust, the most common exposure pathway into the body. Studies indicate that low-income, inner-city children suffer disproportionately from elevated blood-lead levels because they live in older, distressed housing with deteriorated paint and high levels of lead dust. Nearly 450,000 of the nation's 22 million children under the age of six have blood-lead levels high enough to impair their ability to think, concentrate and learn. Adults who ingest high levels of lead may experience high blood pressure, headaches, digestive problems, pain in joints and muscles, and other health problems. In 1978, lead-based paint was banned because of the threat to public health, but homes and schools built before 1978 may still have lead-based paint in or on them. Lead-based gasoline is also in the process of being phased out.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that the percentage of children with elevated blood lead levels has been cut in half since the early 1990's, although the prevalence of childhood lead poisoning in low-income, unassisted older housing remains high. In fact, one in six low-income children living in older housing is believed to be lead poisoned. HUD estimates that the number of houses with lead paint has declined from 64 million in 1990 to 38 million in 2000. Eliminating lead-based paint hazards in older low-income housing is essential if childhood lead poisoning is to be eradicated.

We use good face respirators when dealing with a lot of product. Then it gets double bagged and sealed up. In most cases you can wear a normal heavy duty dust mask. So be careful out there!!!

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#8 Post by dhm » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:39 pm

Well, I started this thread and have found out more info. In reading EPA documents on the web, it seems like common sense and reason prevail. Obviously, you do not want to de-incentivize getting rid of old sources of lead, so I found no reason that I need to spend humongous amounts of money. The installers will give me information, and I will use great care in avoiding exposure and damp mopping frequently and carefully. They will dispose of material properly. In the end I will have removed a source of lead for me and future owners of my house. I also talked to a finishing contracter whose business is to remove old paint-- he said in Chicago, nothing legal for a homeowner really to worry about getting window replacement. DM

Mass. window guy
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#9 Post by Mass. window guy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:27 am

I am also a cerified lead paint removal contractor (actually I should say- "was").
Mass. was one of the 1st in the nation and is certainly one of the strictest.
It is the scam of the century in my opinion. There was so much illegal work being done that I couldn't justify continuing.
It is a problem for young children- not adults. Unless you plan on eating it (which by the way is how most child poisoning occurs). The friction of a sash rubing against the buck frames will create dust that falls on the floor. Young children crawl on the floor and put anything in sight in their mouths- then they get poisoned. Anyone who keeps their home clean reduces the likelyhood of getting poisoned by 99%.
Anyone who is concerened, can buy T.S.P. at the store and mix it with water according to manufacturers specs. Use this to wipe down all your hardwood floors and moldings. The solution acts like a magnet and collects the dust very nicely. It is what the abatement pros will use after the project is completed.

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