Window installation question

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windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

Window installation question

#1 Post by windowshopper » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:13 am

The windows are being installed without insulation between the windows and the opening, he says he measures them tight so insulation will not fit. The Gorell come with some grey stuff wrapped around the window and he says that acts as the insulation.

Can you please tell me if that sounds right or if in your opinion the window should have been measured so as to allow insulation between the window and the opening.

Thanks

ProfX
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:24 pm
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#2 Post by ProfX » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:36 am

Sounds like the windows came with a foam wrap which is pretty standard nowadays. This should take care of your insulating needs on the sides and head. But the sill will still need to be insulated. Also where the foam wrap goes up the sides of your new windows and across the head, it leaves the top corners still needing to be stuffed with a little R-11.

windowshopper
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#3 Post by windowshopper » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:25 pm

I am looking at some of the windows setting in place and there is cracks on the side between the window and opening where you can see daylight several inches high to the outside which the foam wrap does not cover, I would guess that the only thing going to stop wind from blowing in there will be caulking. Seems lousy to me although I will see what they do. They did not get a permit either and I insisted they do. I don!t know if that is stupid on my part or not. I have been very paranoid about this because with me whatever can go wrong usually does. I have to tell you that I am not knowledgable about installation but those cracks to daylight that are several inches high between window and opening don!t make me feel goo knowing that unless they use something else the only thing stopping wind will be caulking.

ProfX
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Location: Southeast

#4 Post by ProfX » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:38 pm

If you are seeing daylight on the sides of the windows, the measurement sounds a little shy on the width. A 1/4" shy or so won't hurt a thing but make sure they insulate with r-11 or r-13 around the windows. If they still say it's not necessary go buy some tonite and make sure they use it. Caulking will not prevent all air or cold from penetrating, you need the insulation for a thermal break. About the permit....don't sweat it, I'm sure there are a lot of us on this board when working within city limits..don't get them. If an inspector was to come by, they would pull the boys off the job and have them get one before they could resume. No fines or anything, just the city anting their money. :wink:

windowshopper
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#5 Post by windowshopper » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:54 pm

He said the reason for the cracks of daylight between the window and the opening is because he did not screw them down yet. I don!t know if that will solve the problem or not or if they would still need insulation but I know he does not intend on using insulation.

uto
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#6 Post by uto » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:01 pm

Get out of his way and let him do his job. I bet he knows what he is doing. Stop worrying us all so much.

handyman19619
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#7 Post by handyman19619 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:58 pm

test

handyman19619
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#8 Post by handyman19619 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:10 pm

WOW Uto I can still post here.
Make them insulate the windows shopper. A little more will not hurt but you must not make them cram it in till they cant get it to take anymore.
Ask them nicely and if that doesnt work call the salesman or owner.
Please do not get angry and start throwing a tantrum be calm. It is your home and any reasonable request should be granted. If not should be fully explained to you. Maybe you did see some daylight? Maybe they were not screwed down? Many customers see things during an install and begin to assume things are wrong when they should maybe give the installers a chance to finish what they are doing. But once they pull out the caulk gun you might want to step in and say Hey Insulate that or I wont be happy.

windowshopper
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#9 Post by windowshopper » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:41 pm

Just so you know I was not over his shoulder the whole time, I did look at the windows and asked him about that and then mentioned it again when he got to that window and explained what I was talking about and he said it was not squared yet I adressed it in a nice way did not scream and holler and did not insist that he use insulation because he said it did not need it. He has been installing for this company for 9 years, I am not an expert but I will always think that maybe insulation should have been used. I am not going to lose sleep over it is done now and if there are problems I will have to adress it.

What signs would I see if he should have used insulation but did not?
Another thing I am curious about, in all the time I followed the forum and saw many questions and answers and asked some myself maybe I was missing something or stupid but when the windows were delivered they had the double pane low E glass and the sticker gave a U rating of 0.32. For some reason I was thinking that these windows with that glass had a lower U rating. 0.32 is not a very good U rating is it?

windowshopper
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Last questions

#10 Post by windowshopper » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:23 am

Sorry for babbling on yesterday. Could someone please answer two more questions for me. When they did the install they split one piece of trim probably 7 or 8 inches up the side about an inch in and another is cracked horizontally with zagged edges looks like it cracked in half but did not come apart completely and they took two big gouges out of wood on the kitchen window with a hammer. Is this something they should fix or would that be my responsibility?

Also, when you do the outside capping is it normal to seal the seams on the capping with the silicone caulking or is it normal not to. They did not they sealed only around the window

FenEx
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#11 Post by FenEx » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:25 am

Windowshopper

Your concerns are valid. ALL voids should be insulated and air-sealed. Cramming fiberglass into such a small crevice will add little or no insulation value. Ratings like R-11 or R-13 are based on the thickness and density of the insulation bats when installed properly and used for their intended purpose. Shreds of fiberglass tightly packed will do nothing for you... the air it traps when properly used is the actual insulator. If their was a larger gap, relaxed fiberglass might be an option as long as it is airsealed before and after it. They can address both issues with a low-expansion foam that will insulate and air-seal in one step. The products I recommend are only commercially available, but as a readily available substitute, DOW (blue can) has a low expansion version that is made for windows that is sold at Home Depot. It does not over expand or cure hard like Great Stuff (red can) which would put pressure on your frames and create possible warranty issues. It's a little messy to use so your installer may be reluctant to agree. Keep in mind that voids or gaps of even 5% in or around any insulating product (including windows) will decrease that wall area's insulating value by 40-70%. Heat is pretty smart... it will follow the path of least resistance and carry moisture with it. Good Luck on your install.

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#12 Post by windowshopper » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:13 am

Fen Ex

Thank you for your response. Beyond telling the company how I feel what are my other options. I mentioned up front that I wanted them insulated and sealed and even sent an email within the 3 days telling them the language in the contract did not include that but he insisted the wrapping which was really talking about the outside capping included the insulation also. I think and hope I kept all the emails.

If they do not respond what should I do ? Have someone come in and take them apart and check the install?

Thanks

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#13 Post by FenEx » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:15 pm

First of all, you must make sure that they agreed to properly insulate and seal the windows. You may want to do this by email so you will have their response in writing. Remind them that you had agreed to it prior to and during the installation with the installer. If they say, yes it's properly insulated... tell them you would like to be reassured by removing a side of the capping on one or two windows as the installer told you it wasn't necessary one minute, and that the capping would be insulated the next. Start there and see what happens. You might want to sit on that final payment for another day until you are confident you got what you paid for. Caulking is not insulation, it's air-sealing and on most jobs the capping is only caulked at the window side and not at the outer edge by the siding. This allows the air to go right around it and through to the inside casing/stops if the new insert frame is not properly sealed and insulated to the old jamb. We aren't just talking drafts here, pressure and temperature differences from inside to out will push or pull the air through carrying heat and moisture. Let us know how it turns out.

windowshopper
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Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#14 Post by windowshopper » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:42 pm

Unfortunately I already paid them when they finished because I could not prove they did anything wrong. I emailed the business today explaining what I had asked for up front and that what I saw was not what I asked for. I explained about the gaps I saw. He called the installer and then called me and said the installer told him he insulated them and I said I was in the room when he came in to finish and had no insulation with him and could not have. He said maybe he left and got it and that the guy has worked for him for a number of years and they have no problems with him. He said if he says he did it he believes him.

After he hung up the installer called me and said when he squared the window it filled the gap and did not require any insulation. The gap that I saw I can!t understand how that would be possible. The installer admitted to me he did not insulate it and I told him the owner said you told him you did insulate it and there was silence. The bottom line is that the owner believes him and while I have not asked I would doubt that he would pull the trim and seal because as far as he is concerned it was done right and they stand by their work. This gap I was seeing I was looking at from inside the house but it was the same straight through to the other side. The last thing I would ever want to do is make an issue where there is none but I can!t believe that a gap that size when the window was squared would fill in that much space. I can understand that on the windows that fit tight you might not need insulation.I guess I either have to live with it or have someone else remove and look to make sure it was done right and then that might void the warranty.

I love the windows though, what an improvement over what I had. Seems quieter, the downstairs has always been cold, I will see if the house seems warmer or not. I have vinyl siding and I know there is insulation in the walls and I am also going to have an energy audit. Thanks for all the help.

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#15 Post by FenEx » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:53 pm

Windowshopper

Wayne Gorell posts on these sites. You may want to address a post to him directly and see what he has to say about the install of his firm's windows. From an energy auditor's standpoint, I can tell you that an unsealed 1/8 or 1/16 of an inch gap is unacceptable and completely unecessary during a proper install. It's just too darn easy to address at little or no cost to the installer before the capping and the results of not doing it are indeed significant. A small 1/2" hole in a 100 sq/ft properly sealed wall will increase the air and moisture penetration 10 fold. Homes are imperfect, so when ya get the easy stuff, ya gotta take advantage of it. As for the "squaring" issue... think about that. One smaller rectangle frame inside another.... shift it left to right, up or down... the gap volume remains the same, it just gets moved to a new location. If you are happy the way it is... then I am happy for you. Any way you look at it, you have made a wise move in the right direction. Enjoy your new windows.

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