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| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Oberon) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 15:19:57 |
Oh C'mon... LOL... was just havin' a little fun.
| Author: | scott |
| Subject: | windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 01:14:25 |
I have some more questions for the group. From previous posts and the website Ed recently posted comparing energy savings it seems a good window will drop my energy bill 30-40%. Is this a reasonable assumption? It seems optimistic to me.
In my house with New England weather that's a savings of about $650 per year. Now figure that I need to do 14 windows. If the average price of a mid to top window installed is say $600 (is this a reasonable assumption?)I'm looking at over 12years to recoup my investment. So can someone convince my I want to buy the windows vs taking the money and investing it since an 8% return on the investment nets me the same reward? Resale value... well I know things can change but at this point I plan on staying put for quite some time.
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | windows: return on investment (posted by scott) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 01:53:02 |
The figures of 30 to 40% savings appear to be pretty accurate if all else remains the same. Of course those folks that leave windows/doors open or have holes in the wall won't achieve that!
During my investigation of what window I wanted to purchase I came across a page on the DOE site that indicated doors and windows accounted for somewhere between 40 - 50% of ones' energy bill on average. No, I don't recall the exact URL.
However, it appears to me that most pros on this board, while enjoying the opportunity to perhaps be able to pick up some business within their respective areas of operation, aren't here for direct business development. Instead they seem to believe that an educated consumer will enable them to fulfill more specific requirements that will add to their experience and leave a more satisfied customer - wherever that customer may be.
Your post seems to invite someone to argue (convince) you into replacing your windows. I can't see this happening. Let's face it - if you're currently satisfied with your windows nothing will convince you. If you believe that energy costs and normal home deterioration will remain static for the 12+ years you're looking at, well, what can one say? If you would rather make your estimated 8% on the $$ involved, go for it. I just don't think that any of the pros here will attempt to convince you that you SHOULD replace your windows. After all, that's YOUR decision.
| Author: | Windowtech |
| In Reply To: | windows: return on investment (posted by scott) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 01:59:11 |
Lawrence Berkely Labs has a program called RESFEN, which can calculate energy usage in a typical home using different window designs. This can give you some idea of the total annual energy savings. You can call them and get the program for a nominal fee. However, there are many creature comforts that are associated with high performance windows that will add intrinsic value to your home- for one thing, you will not feel drafts sitting next to a high performance window system, and you will be able to enjoy the beautiful view outside (assuming that you have one), which is why we have windows in the first place!
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 02:04:44 |
Art... You may take my seat... I was about to type my ass off in dispute of the original post... but you are right, that's not why I come here. You get my vote for Pro of the day.
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | windows: return on investment (posted by scott) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 02:14:58 |
I'd like to comment on this from a couple different angles.
First, people shouldn't look at windows as a financial investment to be compared to stocks or bonds. Think of it this way,... what is the paper your stocks or bonds are printed on worth? Does that figure into the equation of your buying stocks or bonds?? Better grade of paper, better stock? Well in windows it does matter. Not only does the "stock"{window} you are buying save you money, but it has a real tangible value all by itself. Even if the windows didn't save you money on fuel savings, they add equity into your home, makes the home easier to sell if you should want to sell, and gives you the comfort of feeling warm on cold days and cool on hot ones, and gives you pride in the upkeep you have done on your home. Plus, not every buying decision has to have a cost/benefit analysis. Sometimes, people just want new windows, just like they might want a new computer or a new piece of jewelry. Buying something nice after saving for it for a long time is very satisfying.
As far as fuel savings, this is not an exact science because every home is different.
Let's take two homes as an example. The first home is not insulated at all in the attic or in the walls, and the wind just howls in through the cracks and the outlets in the exterior walls. But, the eight windows in the home are airtight, and have a good airtight storm window.
The second home has been well insulated in the walls, housewrap was applied when the home was sided, and has 20" of insulation blown into the attic. This home has 24 drafty, leaky single pane windows, some with leaky storm windows, and some with no storms at all.
Now, the first home with the decent windows, but with drafty uninsulated walls and ceilings would almost surely have very modest fuel savings, even with a top glass package.
But, on the other hand, the insulated home with horrible leaky windows could see higher fuel savings than any salesman would even dare to promise.
I hope this helps in your decision making process about purchasing windows, but as always, the decision is yours and only you can make that financial decision. Good luck and thanks for the good question.
| Author: | Window4U |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 02:35:43 |
I agree.....If I would have seen Art's masterful post before I started typing, I would have saved my "Oberon-length" post for another day.
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Windowtech) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 03:15:18 |
I don't care if the sites were developed by NASA... they only provide basic averages with little or no scientific degrees of accuracy for their intended implication. I am EPA certified to test and rate the energy efficiency of homes and just about every part of them. W4U made very valid points.. a home is a complete system. Addressing a hole in a bucket made of screen intended to hold water is a waste of time and money. I'll temporarily restrain my desire to get Oberonic on Ya'll.
| Author: | scott |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 04:02:13 |
Heck, I'm not looking to be convinced, my current windows stink, probablly can blow out a candle from the draft on a windy January night. Just wanted to throw out my previous post to stir up some debate as to the relative financial merits of this particular investment. I've got a list of home improvements a mile long and a limited budget so trying to prioritize.
| Author: | Jeff W |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Window4U) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 12:28:15 |
We have read the scientific data, much of it simulated. We wanted real life data for our area. A lifelong friend of my sisters is working with us and I will share this non technical real life data. She is saving $60 per month from her former $180 utility bills in the fall prior to our winter cold months. She has 3 kids and a dog in and out of the house. We expect her triple pane units installed in her home will take 8 years to pay her back. We did not factor any painting or glazing costs over the period which would actually reduce pay back to roughly 6 years. DOE states if you replace your windows every 10 years you will come out ahead. They don't specify an area. Our experience indicates that in 16 years she will have around $6000 more in her pocket. As energy costs increase so will her savings, in addition, she can open her windows, tilt them for conveience of cleaning and does not have the unsightly aluminum storms on her home. Following this we installed the same units in my sister-in-laws home with the same savings. Double pane with lowE is saving our customers $35-40 per month. In the northeast you should see a better return as your utilities cost more than KY and your heating season is 2-3 months longer than ours. Ask folks in your area that have had replacement units for the savings they are getting and use your best judgement. Comfort is also a factor. This past year it was 4 degrees outside for 2 days and my 1906 home was 47 degrees inside. We had 2 space heaters on each side of our large screen TV and were on the couch with blankets. With our place up for sale commercially I am not changing the windows knowing the house will some day soon be dozed. Even though I own a window company and can the units at a good cost.
| Author: | Oberon |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 13:15:18 |
Oberonic? Geez!
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Window4U) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 13:20:40 |
I had to sleep on this one before posting. OBERONIC, FenX, that one had me LMAO for awhile. Good One! My regards to Art also. I know the few of us here answering questions daily (when possible). Have never pitched anyone here on sales. I know I'm here because I love what I do for a living. Which I'm sure the others can say the same. My number one goal in life is to educate the people who want to be. Everyday I hear of soem "PRO" telling another BS (building science, Oberon) story on windows and doors. For every idiot out there claiming to be the P Diddy of windows. I'd like to take a baseball bat to their knees. Then introduce them to Little Nick from the movie Casino! It's people claiming to know that destroy our economic structure. Like what ever happen to shaking hands as a contract? Gone! What ever happened to a man keeping and living by his word? Gone! I live and die by my word. My son has been raised the same way. A hand shake is all we need. Little Nick does the rest. (JK) Bottom line is we are here to help out of kindness and to help those less fortunate than we are. I'll tell you one thing. We weren't born with the knowledge we pass on. We learned the same way everyone else did. We just share it for free!!!
| Author: | scott |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Jeff W) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 14:06:55 |
Thanks Jeff
I was sort of hoping for this kind of data and/or real life experiences in response to my first post. I guess I hit on a sensitive spot with some folks
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by scott) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 14:23:11 |
Hey, that's what we thrive on. If a posts doesn't get the guys riled up and thinking a little, they're not having fun! We appreciate your questions and enjoy your participation, my friend. Keep the comments and questions coming. Thanks!
| Author: | Oberonic |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 19:47:01 |
Ya, had me laughing pretty good too
| Author: | scott |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by Window4U (IL)) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 20:38:24 |
ok, i get it. Was worried befoe that I'd pissed people off and/or gave the impression I was an idiot.
since you suggested it...another question
When replacing old worn out single pane window (with storm) with newer energy efficient windows I was wondering how good the replacement has to be. In other words if you get a decent frame, double pane, low e, argon good spacers... lets say a U factor of .34 will that realize 80-90% of the energy savings and spending the extra $$$ to go top shelf and get down to a U factor of .22 not really result in much more energy savings? Another words, are you spending an extra couple grand and getting little more to show for it?
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by scott) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 21:04:08 |
I'm sure FenX will have an Oberonic post for this one. His ballpark! My two cents offered here will not be Oberonic.
When I sell windows my first question is "how long do you plan on living here". Simply for the reason you've stated. I can't see selling the Royles Royce when they can have the next best thing. Some customers want the bbest right out of the gate. Moneys not an issue and what momma wants daddy gets for her!! I try and sell the middle of the pack all the time. I feel our installation program here really adds some U value to the opening. We pull back old trim on insert windows and make sure insulation is up to par. We take the time to make sure the little things are cared for. Like FenX tells everyone. Your home is a system. All cylinders must fire in sequence to operate right. SO using the middle of the pack works well for me. I don't have the privilege to use the Schuco window unless I install it for the local distributor here. So I settle for the next best thing. All in all it's your money being spent. If you have a ton then feel free to spend at will. If your on a budget like most people you have to get the best bang for your buck! It's your decision. Good Luck!!!
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by scott) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 21:19:30 |
From the .34 to a .22, given 12 square/ft per window and 20 windows and a regional winter design temp of 20 degrees with a preferred indoor ambient temp of 70 degrees making the delta T 50 degrees, the difference in the two units would be 72 BTUs/hr/unit or 12,614,400 BTUs/yr or 126,144 therms and at $1.92 each that would be about an additional savings of about $242 per year not including loss from air infiltration of the lessor units and of course you must consider the fact that the lessor units might not last and will begin to lose energy efficiency through gas dissipation in the first 5 years which is long before the 8.26 years at the current energy rates that it would take to recoup the investment difference of $100/unit and of course this does not even take into account that you might sell the house within that same period of time as averages state that most Americans move every 5 years on average and the new buyer will look for quality upgrades you have made to the property and in most areas quality windows typically have a great return on investment typically being 68-74% upon install.
<thud>
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-20 21:27:39 |
OMG !!! I've been OBERIZED!!!! but.. atleast I kept it to a single sentence.
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-21 04:43:11 |
OMG HS Batman! To the Bat Cave!! FENX is overheating!!!
| Author: | scott |
| In Reply To: | RE: windows: return on investment (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: windows: return on investment |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-21 17:45:01 |
thanks for the data FenEx. It's nice to see data. A couple comments though... 12sq ft windows is pretty big, I bet most older homes such as mine have windows that are closer to 8 sq ft. Also 70 degrees is pretty toasty, I'm guessing many would shoot for 65. Also with programable thermostats you can drop that even further during the sleeping and/or work hours so perhaps the average temp for a 24hr period is even lower... 60 perhaps.
Gas dissipation overtime is a great point though. Can you recommend any resources to compare window performance in this regard?
thanks in advance
scott