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| Author: | Jen |
| Subject: | Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 16:40:42 |
OK guys, I've been lurking on this site for about 3 weeks, because I have been in the process of receiving and reviewing bids for replacing 9 windows in my 23 year old house.
I do not expect to be in this house forever, but I do want to install the "best value" windows I can afford, mostly for resale appeal/value.
As best as I can tell, the energy savings between the "good, better and best" priced windows that have been proposed to me will takes years, and years, to make any "significant" difference. So, while that is of some interest, it's hard to make it a primary concern.
Bottom line: I will this week, unless one of you cause me to change mind, purchase 9 Stanley Pro-Fit Premium OR Ultimate double hung windows from a local company that I have checked out with the BBB and 4 previous customers.
http://www.stanleywindows.com
The only postings on this site that I can find about Stanley windows indicate that they are made by Silverline and are "the cheapest of the cheap."
That kind of posting is not very helpful. What would be helpful would be specific reasons why one maybe should not buy Stanley windows and/or why one should consider buying xxxxx windows, that are in the same price range.
Bottom line: The proposal I have for the Stanley windows is approximately $140-$370 dollars less, per window, than any of the other 6 proposals I have. The company seems to check-out OK and unlike a most of the other sales pitches, the Stanley guy did not insult my intelligence or trash his competitors.
Think of it this way. I am seriously considering buying a Toyota. Telling me that it is a cheap car, is not helpful. Telling me that a Lexus is a much better car, is not helpful. However, telling that if it were your sister that was buying a car --- and she was comfortable with the style, size and price of a Toyota Corrolla --- that you would have her look at the Nissan Altima, would be very helpful.
I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like I have spent more time on this decision than I did on the decision to buy the house in he first. At some point, everyone needs to xxxx, or get off he pot. That's what I'm trying to do and with your help, I will this week.
Thank you sooo much for this site, Tim, and thank you "pros" for all the work you put into the site. It has been a God-send in general, and a real hoot on some occuasions.
Jen
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:09:03 |
Jen
I get a little bombarded sometimes so I don't have time to get into lengthy detail... so I'll focus on one particular note. Silverline is huge... because they are cheap and fill a need for the commercial market. If Stanley backed them... it was for their profit... not yours. As long as I have been in this industry, I have never heard more complaints of product failure as I have with Silverline.
You aren't talking about a car here. You are talking about your home... your greatest investment, or your greatest liability. You are also talking about windows, the greatest source of energy loss or gain into your home. I'd say the exact same thing to a Mother or Sister. It's not our job to convince you or anyone else... but if you ask.. we will offer "our" opinions. If you choose another route... so be it. I won't, in good conscience steer anyone towards low-end products when it comes to windows or products that affect us all. I wish you well.
FenEx
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:13:34 |
Jen -
You are in the same predicament that so many of us find ourselves in from time to time. Personally, I went into information overload mode when I first visited this site.
If I may comment, your single line about the scarcity of Stanley info just might be a clue. It would seem to indicate that they are not a popular window among the pros nor among those seeking information. I'd sure wonder why.
The old saying about the sweetness of low price being forgotten while the bitterness of poor quality remains (or something like that) is usually true. I get the sense that you may be looking at the $$ amount as being indicative of value and it isn't. Don't yell if I'm wrong :). I elected to go with a premium high-quality window because it turned out to be a lot less expensive than a number of the 'lower price/higher value' brands. Now, that is probably due in great part to the dealer/installer making what he feels is a 'fair' profit and not trying to retire on my $$. The point is, you might be better off searching a bit further - yeah, I know just what a pain it is and just how confusing it might be. However, in looking at the specs on the Stanley site it sure appears that you do get what you pay for and, somehow, I find it difficult to believe that something along the line of 'yup, those are recently installed windows, they were close to the cheapest I could find' VS 'yup, those are recently installed windows, they're nationally rated as one of the best and greatest energy saving units available' would sound better for resale purposes.
Best of luck.
Art
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:19:04 |
Thanks for he reply. I thought my post was clear as to what I was looking for and what would be helpful. I'm sorry I can't be/wasn't more clear.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:22:49 |
Thanks for the reply. You said in your post:
"However, in looking at the specs on the Stanley site it sure appears that you do get what you pay for..."
Would you, or anyone, please be specific. What, specifically, in the specs should I be concerned with?
Jen
| Author: | Reader |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:40:23 |
You are unbelieveable. Buy your stanley windows lady!!! You ask for opinions, and ask for advice, but when the pros and others take their valuable time to help, you get defensive? People like you are the reason that few take the time to help in the first place, and those that do will stop. It seems you will continue until you get reassurance to buy what you want anyway. Buy it !!
| Author: | Confused |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:43:12 |
Jen,
I your pain. If I could, I would love to tell you things like:
1) The Stanley windows are not your best choice because of the method they use to do their fusion welding vs the method Certainteed, and others, use.
2) Stanley's .35 (LoE2) and .31 LoE2 with gas ratings are a lie.
3) Stanley's vinyl is not virgin, and everyone knows what that means
4) ...
But, I have no idea what I am talking about. Maybe this window stuff really is "rocket science."
Confused
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Reader) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:47:09 |
Thanks for your reply.
Jen
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:48:39 |
Jen -
Please remember that like you, I'm just a homeowner. However, if there's one thing that I've learned coming to this site it's that one of the most important things to look for in a window is the 'U' factor. My understanding is that the lower the 'U', the more efficient (energy-saving) the window. On the Stanley site the Ultimate DH shows a 'U' factor of .31 - if I'm not mistaken this is a lot closer to the minimum side of the Energy Star rating than the lower (lower is better). The air infiltration for the small DH they measure is rated at 0.13. As a measure of difference, the windows I'm purchasing have a 'U' factor of .21 and an air infiltration rating of 0.01 if I recall correctly and if I'm wrong on that, it's not by much. The DP or Design Pressure rating on my windows is 65 vs. Stanley's 35, 40 or 45. My understanding is that the DP rating indicates how well the window will fare under high-wind conditions. Since I live in an area SW of Chicago known as tornado alley, I can appreciate the ability to withstand a 195mph wind which is what a DP 65 means.
Again, I'm no tech guy, just a homeowner but I do think you might want to investigate/learn just a bit more in order to make a well-thought out decision involving what can amount to substantial money.
Personally, I'd rather spend a little too much than not enough on something like windows. Without a doubt, on resale one can usually recapture a high percentage of the original cost of higher end windows while enjoying the substantial advantages of them during the occupancy time.
Hope this helps.
Art
| Author: | Confused |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Reader) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:50:18 |
Wow! Take a pill. The lady was very specific as to what she was looking for in the way of reply to her post. If someone chooses to reply, exactly like she asked that they not, who's wasting who's time.
Confused
| Author: | also confused |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 17:57:26 |
Thank you for your post Jen. You illustrate best the big big problem on this discussion board of window bashing. To simply state that a window is cheap or useful only for your back porch or made by idiots reflects more on the poster that the product. Don't get discouraged and good luck.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 18:01:39 |
Art,
Thanks for the "pro-like" reply.
As to engery savings, when I do the math, it's hard to justify the additional cost involved in getting to where you are with your purchase. Also, I believe that I can probably save more engery, in this house, by investing the extra dollars in other areas. As to "high-wind" ratings, I'm not overly concerned with that in my area of the country.
Again, thank you very much for your reply. It's nice to get specifics.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by also confused) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 18:02:52 |
Also Confused,
Thanks for your reply.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Confused) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 18:06:04 |
Confused,
Thanks for your reply. It's really helps to laugh a little.
Jen
| Author: | NYer |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 18:18:34 |
Hey, Jen. Many of us have been where you are. We would all love to drive that Lexus but can only afford a Toyota. Reader above is way out of line. Many consumers post on this board about windows & get steered to the best windows, which a lot of us can't afford. When asking about mid-cost windows, it would be very simple for a pro to say, "While I don't recommend this window, this window is a better choice than that window because......"
While I apprecite all the info I have received on this board, I have found some of the pros can only recommend and sell the best. This, unfortunatley, doesn't help the average consumer make a choice between middle of the line windows.
There is a huge industry of middle of the line windows out there, and there are lots of people who buy them and are happy with them.
While I am not a window "pro", I am a homeowner & have been researching windows as well. I would suggest looking at Simonton 5500 or Alside Excalibur, which may fall into your price range and may be a better made window. While these are not their top of the line windows, and not everyone would pick them or recommend them, both Alside & Simonton have good reputations as window manufacturers. I know people with the Alsides & are very happy with them.
Good luck.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by NYer) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 18:22:55 |
NYer,
Thanks for your reply. It's exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for. I will check out the lines you mention. In fact, I have a proposal from Simonton that I will re-visit. It was one of my "finalist."
Thanks again.
Jen
| Author: | reader2 |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Reader) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 19:01:16 |
You are totally out of line by a response like that. What other names have you used on this board?
Bash the window, bash the company and now bash the customer.
Rethink your very emotional post. You owe us all an apology.
| Author: | Reader |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by reader2) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 20:45:52 |
Owe you an apology? Like hell I do. You owe him one. Yes, I know Michael personally... you know him as FenEx. He's a person who cares about what he does. I hear the good and bad everyday, including people's problems from this site as he is trying to help. I have a feeling that this will be deleted anyways through censorship anyways so Ill stop here.
T
| Author: | reader3 |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Reader) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 22:18:30 |
FexEx? no suprise there. Lets ask Tim if he supports responses like yours. Apolgize to US and Tim, not me.
| Author: | cheapest of the cheap |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 22:32:00 |
Bet you did't expect such an emotional avalanche of responses. I sure agree with you that bashing other windows is not much help and is no way to educate the consumer.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by cheapest of the cheap) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-30 23:12:05 |
Cheapest,
Thanks for your reply.
No, I didn't expect the kind of responses that my post has generated. It seems to me that there must be more going here than my post.
Emotions, agendas, intentions, etc. are not important to me. All I want/need are facts, well founded/properly supported opinions, and perhaps a few light-hearted comments to brighten up this thread.
Jen
| Author: | simple solution |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by also confused) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 00:12:07 |
Jen,
First of all don't be offended by this but do you not have anything better with your life but to sit through 6 sales presentations for windows. You stated that you are going through more for the windows then when you bought the house, Jen you brought that on yourself, Now you don't need the "best" window out there but I would first sit back and look at those presentation and eliminate the companties that spent less then 1hr at your house, If you dont spend at least 1hr (should be close to 1 1/2 to 2 hrs) then they do not have even a good product and they are only selling you price. If you do purchase the cheapest you are taking a risk of those windows breaking down on you in a very short time. My simple solution to you is to take the cheapest price you got and call the best company up and show them what you have for the price you got, trust me when i say, that company will match that price and you will get a very good window for a very inexpensive price.
| Author: | Reader 4 |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Reader) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 00:36:25 |
T, why would you think this post has anything to do with Michael? He is not even mentioned here & the OP thanked all the pros.
Talk about overreacting!!!
| Author: | Chuffy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by cheapest of the cheap) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 03:09:01 |
I can't believe the constant ignoramous responses to these posts. You have PROFESSIONAL'S responding to your questions and your blind. These individuals get paid to do their jobs during the day. Then FOR FREE ADVICE they respond to your questions. They are then analyzed by English Majors for spelling errors and grammar. People then say they are bashing windows to be mean. What is wrong here? You have to be an idiot to not see they live for their jobs and want you to invest your money in what they feel (OPINION) is best for you the homeowner. It's their opinion not a verse from the Bible. If you don't see eye to eye point out the difference in your beliefs. I've never in my life seen so many people just be rude and mean to others who offer a Professional opinion for free. Doctors do it everyday. Are they always right? NO! Get another opinion. Don't piss in their corn flakes. Now you ignorant ones have driven off one of the best Pro's the board has, FenX. I'm sure now the other great ones will follow in his foot steps. So now you can rely on Anon, Joe C, and Grasshopper to answer your questions and send you down the river. WAKE UP!!!!! APPRECIATE WHAT YOU GET FOR FREE. IT COST YOU NOTHING. YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN FOR FREE ADVICE.
GOOD DAY BABIES
| Author: | Reader 4 |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Chuffy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 03:36:34 |
Speaking of ignorant responses....Another classy post...first off, no one said the pros are bashing windows to be mean. It was stated that bashing windows is not helpful to the consumer. That is quite a different thing & factually stated by a consumer - someone even pros should listen to.
Perhaps some posts have been pulled & I missed something, but I haven't seen any post by "english majors" nor have I seen anyone bash FenEx, just thank him or ask for other suggestion besides Shucco. If people have behaved this way, it is truly unfortunate, but an intelligent person would know to ignore this nonsence and that the majority on this board do not behave this way and appreciate the pros help.
| Author: | Get a Life |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Chuffy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 03:37:50 |
Fen Ex is leaving by his own accord. Just because people dispute what the "pro's" say is not a bad thing. Read the posts and after some thought the "pro's" often change or qualify their statements. Without this, the written word can be interpeted in may ways. I am sure on this site you have people reading the posts from various backgrounds, education levels and financial status. Just because Schuco may be the best window does not make it the best window for everyone. If it did we wouldn't need this board. There are numerous other large companies (information obtained from this site and other finicial sites) that remain sucessful and profitable so their products must be acceptable to some. I am sorry that he has decided to leave since I know he has forgotten more about windows than I know. The sad thing about this board, is when the discussion becomes personal attacks like your post. Discussion is good as is disagreement since it keeps everyone honest. Personal attacks are childish and should be expressed on a childs chat room. I will now fall off my podium but post useful disagreements we can all learn from.
Too XXXX Sad
| Author: | Dennis J |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 04:08:57 |
Jen,
I am just a consumer like yourself. I haven't seen Stanley windows. However, a friend of mine has Sliverline (maker of Stanley) windows in his 1 year old condo. One of the the casements has broken hardware already and another windows is fogging between the panes. Out of 11 windows this is almost 20% failure within one year.
You mentioned cars and Toyota vs Lexus. I think a better comparison is Lexus vs Toyota vs Kia. Maybe you can't afford the Lexus, but in the long run, can you really afford the Kia? Sure maybe the gas mileage is close on all three, but odds are good the long term costs on the Kia will be higher than the Toyota.
regards,
Dennis
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Reader 4) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 04:38:55 |
I thought I could refrain from speaking out but why change my ways. It's unfortunate we deal with unfair accusations of any kind. For Reader 4 & Get A Life. I don't fear to attach my name or ever hide behind my thoughts or computer screen. No annonymous name to use what so ever. Yes we do get bashed and yes it 's not worth some of the responses. If you know anything about our trade you know there are more headaches and issues on a daily basis than most other jobs. Why add more. Our time in this industry has made us somewhat bias and we stand for what we believe. Everyone has that Freedom of Speech going for them. We choose to use ours here. If we tell people we believe certain products are better than others. So what! It's our opinion. I drive a Chevy you Drive a Ford. I don't attack you for it. Yes we make mistakes and change our views. I've done it here myself with Oberon. We learn things from any body. If we error we say we're sorry and move on. Please let's just stop all this rederick and move on to working with those who need it. These are the issues Fenestration Expert was saying go to far. So let's just drop it here and move on. I don't have the energy to carry it any further!!
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Dennis J) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 05:20:48 |
Dennis,
Thanks for your post.
The information regarding your friend's experience with Silver Line windows is interesting.
According to Silver Line, they produce their private label, HD's American Craftsman and Stanley's windows. Silver Line indicated that although each of the 3 lines of windows are similar, each of the lines are different in a number of ways. Of course, as seems to be the case with this industry in general, Silver Line choose not to, or was unable to, provide any more specific information.
As to my/your car analogy, I was (and still am) simply asking that someone explain to me what, in their estimation, is wrong with the less expensive car(s), rather than just tell me that I should buy the more expensive models. That is, give me one or more specific reasons why the less expensive model is not the best alternative.
Telling me that I may be, or will be, better off in the long-run if I buy a more expensive car is not providing me with information upon which I can logically make a purchase decision.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 05:51:01 |
Guy,
I have read many of your posts on this board and I tend to, more often than not, respect your opinion. Please notice I said "respect your opinion," rather than "agree with your opinion." There is a difference in the two, although I'd have to say that most of time, I respect AND agree with YOUR opinion.
However, I believe a substantial amount of the advice that is "given" on this site is not provided with enough supporting information for critical thinkers to use that advice in any meaningful way.
For example, continuing your analogy, if I ask you which is better Chevy or Ford, and you simply say Chevy with no specific reasons attributed to your opinion, your opinion is of no value to me. However, on the other hand, if you said Chevy, and you gave me a few "specific reasons" why you believed the Chevy was better than Ford, your opinion would be of value to me regardless of if I agreed with it or not.
Please understand that when I say "specifics reasons," I do not mean reasons like:
- Chevys are a much better value, in the long run, than Fords.
- Chevys are built, much better than Fords.
- You can buy a Ford if you want to, but you get what you pay for.
- I would never buy a Chevy, but go ahead, you think you know so much, it's your decision, go for it.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by simple solution) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 06:06:29 |
Simple,
Thanks for your post.
As to your "simple solution," I would be happy to take your advice but in order to do so, I would first need to determine which of the 6 proposals was from the, as you put it, "best company." And in order to do that, I would need well founded and supported advice from an experienced and an unbiased source.
Jen
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 06:13:24 |
Jen, I can respect your answer. You are the diamond in the rough. I have never answered your posts on Stanley because I know nothing of them. I know they are made by Silverline. I also know personally I wouldn't use their products. That's only my personal feeling. To many issues with them. It's not fair using the Ford Chevy thing I guess. Apples for Apples they are pretty much even. I get a new truck every two years and have had all of them. I will stick with Chevy though. Because they service my wishes well and fast. I like that. You offer a website to check the product line. Web site are made to make everyones product shine. That's what they are there for. Unless I can physically look and touch the window I can't offer you a fair opinion. That's why I haven't responded to your posts. It wouldn't be fair for you or the window. I do know Silverline does make some good products. I also know they are working on some good products. I also know they make the American Craftsman Window sold by Home Depot. This window has caused me to loose sleep and money. So in all fairness thank you for being straight up and honest. That I like!!!!
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 06:26:42 |
Now this I can answer for you. The cheaper windows are made using less quality hardware and materials. Usually they lack a cheaper balance or spring system. The fenestration will be a lighter gauge material. The glass will be 1/2" vs 7/8". They won't add all the little things like covers over the spring casings. The hardware on some of the better products is through bolted with a nut and bolt where the cheaper one is just screwed through the vinyl. The next thing is physical appearance. Better windows have a sloped sill for water run off. Inside the unit tracks will cover drain holes to the eye. Cheaper ones are physically visible. The corner welds on the nicer windows are ground down and buffed to look smoother and better. Cheaper ones are lumpy and ridged. The glass on a cheaper window may be installed with a cheaper tape. These are some of the things to look for between the two. Physical appearance is a big factor between the two. Now I hope this helped a little.
| Author: | James |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 13:50:43 |
Guy,
Your response to my get a life post is exactly what I was speaking of in the post. I was not trashing Fen Ex. I have been looking at this board for months and will continue until I purchase the windows I need. The main thing I was trying to say is challanging your or anyone elses response allows for clarification. It also allows you to look at your answer to make sure it says what you intended. Unlike most, I have no desire to attack anyone about their opinion since it is that "their opinion". I have read most of Fen Ex responses and debated a couple of issues with him. There is no doubt he is totally qualified to answer technical questions concerning windows. The comment about Schuco is only because at times it seems they are paying for this board "my opinion". I don't know enough about windows to challange whether they are the best. The problem arises when someone asks about several diffent windows and the response doesn't address the question. Saying Schuco is the best doesn't answer the question about a windows question when it wasn't an option. I think that is the point Jen was making at the start. We all have our biases. However it is hard for a lot of people to justify the price of windows and you all say Schuco is one of the highest. I couldn't believe it when I first started looking. Windows4U, Fen Ex, Oberon, and numerous others have taught me alot about windows. As for headaches with our jobs, it goes without saying. I promise I will not post any challanges to your or any other pros resposes so no one else will get frustrated and leave. Next time leave your email address and I will send this to you, not the board.
Thanks
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by James) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 14:49:18 |
Well Taken. My email address is always attached. You just have to click on my name. Please don't not respond if you disagree or don't understand. I think it's the manner in responses that get us fired up. Your response was very well understood. Thank You.
Guy
| Author: | numberology |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 16:09:25 |
Congratulations to Jen. 36 responses in 2 days is near the all time high on this board. Could you say the message was to support your opinions with some facts? And no bashing. You have to admit Jen is one articulate logical thinking gal.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by numberology) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 16:24:55 |
Numberology,
Thanks for your reply.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 16:31:27 |
Guy,
Thanks for the reply.
Your reply, along with a few of the others, have helped more than, as you say, "a little."
Jen
| Author: | FYI |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 17:54:37 |
Jen,
Try this web site. I seems to have good information about windows in general that may help.
www.efficientwindows.org/
| Author: | Pierre LaPlume (Reader 4) |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 17:59:05 |
Let me start off by saying that I have always enjoyed Guy's posts & responses. He always comes through with detailed answers when a consumer requests more info. He is a class act & deals with responders as a gentleman.
However, I do have the right to address myself as anything I prefer on the internet & have the right to anonyminity on the internet. It should not make a difference to anyone if I call myself Tom, Pierre or Reader 4. Who cares. Half the names posted here are probably made up anyway. It would be a different story if I was bashing the pros & consumers here, but all I have done is simply state that I have seen many people thank the pros & appreciate them for their help, while supporting the consumers request for details and direct responses to their questions.
Guy, I think your response should have been addressed to Chuffy (quite a unique name). That where the negative rhetoric is coming from by basically causing more turmoil by referring to the "constant ignoramous responses" to these posts. It's apparent this thread is one of the most practical on this board & addresses issues by the consumer.
Let's appreciate both the pros & the consumers, & not support the insulting posters.
Now I shall drop it here and move on.
Thanks.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by FYI) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 18:32:18 |
FYI,
Thanks for your post.
Jen
| Author: | DRL |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 19:06:52 |
Jen--
I don't think you'll ever know EXACTLY which window is best for you. And I don't think anyone here is going to spend hours evaluating and comparing the 6 window quotes and/or companies for you.
You have more than one person indicating problems with Silverline windows, plus previous posts with similar info. You now have a post with some specific issues that are typical with lower-end windows as compared to the better windows. You can choose to ignore this information or take it into consideration.
There IS a lot of info here on the board about which windows are good (and why) and which are not (and why). And there are a lot of good windows mentioned other than Schuco. You can also research and compare NFRC ratings.
I'm just a consumer like you, but unfortunately buying windows is not like buying a car. There are so many different window companies and products out there.
Finally, even if you were seeking advice on buying a car, I'm not sure that anyone could very easily meet the kind of criteria you are looking for. Here's a quote from one of your messages: "As to your "simple solution," I would be happy to take your advice but in order to do so, I would first need to determine which of the 6 proposals was from the, as you put it, "best company." And in order to do that, I would need well founded and supported advice from an experienced and an unbiased source."
Ain't going to happen - you're going to have to make an educated guess! Good luck. You will get what you pay for so make sure you check out the installing company real well so hopefully they will back the product if you have problems.
| Author: | NYer |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by DRL) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 19:52:48 |
I have to disagree with DRL. I believe Jen is pretty clear that the top-end windows are not in the budget. All she is looking for is advise & suggestions on windows that are mid-range, shouldn't be too difficult to get help in this area. It's already been suggested that Silverline is not the way to go, so that should be one down.
Jen, what other companies do you have proposals from that are in your price range? If you list the windows here, perhaps people with experience with these windows (pros & consumers) could help eliminate some windows & narrow down to several better choices on your list.
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 20:13:06 |
Jen, Please email me if you would.
guy@installationmasterinc.com
Thanks
| Author: | Oberon |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 22:36:11 |
You drive a Chevy? Oh MAN, whatever for? why?
;-)
| Author: | Oberon |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 22:51:20 |
Good post Art,
But one clarification, if I may.
A DP rating of 65 means that the window was tested at a maximum pressure of 97.5psf - which is equivalent to a windspeed of roughly 195mph. But, that isn't precisely the same as saying that the window will withstand a wind of 195mph...I hope that distinction makes sense.
I am not trying to split hairs here. I just want to be sure that people are safe and understand that the rating numbers are best used for comparison and to avoid being near a window (no matter what the rating) when the winds become really severe.
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Oberon) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-31 23:29:02 |
Oberon -
Thanks for the clarification. It's through such posts that I and others learn. :)
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 00:45:06 |
Guy,
I tried to email you at the address you left, but it came back. My address is:
jenedwards12@yahoo.com
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by DRL) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 01:35:45 |
DRL,
Thanks for your post.
My comments, re your comments, are embedded below and prefixed with "JEN." Your comments to me, are prefixed with "DRL."
DRL - I don't think you'll ever know EXACTLY which window is best for you.
JEN - I agree. But, I am sure we would disagree as to why that is the case.
DRL - And I don't think anyone here is going to spend hours evaluating and comparing the 6 window quotes and/or companies for you.
JEN - Again, we agree. And to be perfectly clear on this point, I have never requested or expected that anyone would do anything of that sort. I have merely asked what I believe to be a few, reasonable questions.
DRL - You have more than one person indicating problems with Silverline windows, plus previous posts with similar info.
JEN - Noted and being taken into consideration.
DRL - You now have a post with some specific issues that are typical with lower-end windows as compared to the better windows.
JEN - Noted and being taken into consideration. Guy, and others, have been very helpful.
DRL - You can choose to ignore this information or take it into consideration.
JEN - Yes, of course. Is there a point you wish to make?
DRL - There IS a lot of info here on the board about which windows are good (and why) and which are not (and why). And there are a lot of good windows mentioned other than Schuco.
JEN - I agree there is a lot of information on this web site. I do not believe that most of it is well founded or supported. That is not to say that the information available here is not of value, for it is of some value.
DRL - You can also research and compare NFRC ratings.
JEN - I have, extensively, before I found this web site.
DRL - I'm just a consumer like you, but unfortunately buying windows is not like buying a car. There are so many different window companies and products out there.
JEN - I agree that buying windows is not like buying a car. But I completely disagree with your reasoning that it is because of the "many different companies and products" available in this market.
DRL - Finally, even if you were seeking advice on buying a car, I'm not sure that anyone could very easily meet the kind of criteria you are looking for. Here's a quote from one of your messages: "As to your "simple solution," I would be happy to take your advice but in order to do so, I would first need to determine which of the 6 proposals was from the, as you put it, "best company." And in order to do that, I would need well founded and supported advice from an experienced and an unbiased source."
JEN - Pulling/using quotes without context is not something that I believe enhances understanding. I believe you have, hope you have, merely misunderstood the exchange you have used in an inappropriate manner.
DRL - Ain't going to happen - you're going to have to make an educated guess!
JEN - I agree.
DRL - Good luck.
JEN - Thanks.
DRL - You will get what you pay for so make sure you check out the installing company real well so hopefully they will back the product if you have problems.
JEN - Now there's something I haven't heard before.
Jen
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by NYer) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 02:00:14 |
NYer,
Thanks for the post.
But, I have decided to sell the house instead of replacing the windows.
Thanks to everyone for all your time, effort and support.
Jen
Just a little joke.
I have "the list," narrowed to:
1) Comfort World windows, from the local Window World franchise.
2) Simonton windows, from a local home improvement company in my area. The home improvement company does not do a lot of windows, but they do have some window experience and references, and seem to have a very good reputation in general.
Comfort World was one of the original 6 proposals, but the other 5 have been told, "no thanks," for various reasons. As to the local HIC, I found them based on conversations with other homeowners and asked that they propose a solution, which they did within 24 hours.
Jen
| Author: | Marv F |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by DRL) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 02:11:48 |
When a consumer comes seeking advice in a forum where the time and efforts are given voluntarily, it can tend to rankle some if you give off a vibe of "I'm not happy with the quality, depth, etc of advice I'm getting".
That may not have been the original poster's intention, but that's kind of the impression I got from reading some of the posts. It sounds like a few others had a similiar impression.
Posting detailed justifications takes time and the replying poster is under no obligation whatsoever to justify their opinion. If they do, great, if they don't, well you can't really complain too much. The person seeking advice is advised to seek several sources where the patterns of the opinions start to emerge.
Speaking of patterns, something that might (or might not) be useful is previous threads where some of the Pros ranked the manuf's they had knowledge about (and presumably some recommendation for).
Here's two example links. The thread title was "Comparable [Vinyl] Windows" and you will no doubt recognize the poster's names and hopefully some of the Window names as some are widely available and represent various price points.
Good luck.
http://www.replacement-windows.com/window-board/read.php?board=1&id=11312
http://www.replacement-windows.com/window-board/read.php?board=1&id=11290
| Author: | kris |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 14:12:44 |
you are definity confused
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by kris) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 14:50:31 |
Kris,
I'm sorry, I don't understand you post.
Jen
| Author: | Window man PA |
| In Reply To: | Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-02 22:33:17 |
Stay away unless you like !#@#$@
| Author: | tim |
| In Reply To: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: Time to Get Off the Pot |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-02 22:35:33 |
i have silvermine and the name says it all what a piece of ?