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| Author: | cautious consumer |
| Subject: | BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 16:31:03 |
In trying to select a window manufacturer or company, should I be concerned with an unsatisfactory report when other factors seem to be ok?
| Author: | Innovator7 |
| In Reply To: | BBB REPORTS (posted by cautious consumer) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 17:00:20 |
I would!
Remember, not everyone reports issues or problems to the BBB. Only a certain percentage, (most likely, people who are really upset).
You should be able to find companies with clean records or at least with minimal resolved complaints.
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | BBB REPORTS (posted by cautious consumer) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 17:18:23 |
That all depends on the circumstances. An unsatisfactory report may or may not tell the real story, as most stories do have two sides. Maybe the factory has a perfectly good reason for not covering the warranty, like customer abuse or improper installation causing the problem.
I would not condemn any large window factory because of a BBB report alone, as a 99.99% customer satisfaction percentage is still real good.
It would be pretty hard for a company doing tens of millions of dollars a year in sales to not have at least a few disgruntled customers, as the world is not a perfect place, and there are people out there that will not believe anything they are told, even if presented with documented facts.
My advice is to look for a pattern of whether they have a lot of unresolved problems, as well as their general reputation as a whole.
One other note,....some window factories have lent their names to independant installation companies as part of a retail stategy. Make sure this is not where the bad BBB report is coming from. It may not even be the factory, but an independant dealer.
A Google search such as "{insert name} Window problems" may give you some more useful info.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | BBB REPORTS (posted by cautious consumer) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 17:38:02 |
BBB,
I work in the area of consumer relations/protection. Based on my, daily, experience with the BBB over the past several years, I believe that while BBB reports should be considered a "red-flag" by consumers, they should not be considered the "gospel" when it comes to evaluating an organization.
I would recommend that you give the organization you are evaluating an opportunity to respond to your concern about their standing with the BBB. Once you have been through that process, if you have not already, you will likely be in a better position to evaluate the organization.
I realize that my comments are general in nature, and therefore they may or may not be of much value to you in your particular situation. If you would like me to be more detailed in my response, I will be happy to, provided that you can provide me the details of your particular circustance that I will need in order to be more/most effective. If that is what you wish to do, you can reply to me here or, you may email me at jenedwards12@yahoo.com.
Jen
| Author: | small fry |
| In Reply To: | BBB REPORTS (posted by cautious consumer) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 18:40:03 |
I purchased windows from a local company who was a member of the local BBB. I checked out this company on the BBB web site and found a statement that all outstanding complaints had been satisfied and that they were a member in good standing.
After doing business with this company we found ourselves filing a complaint with the BBB over warranty and other problems that this company would not take care of. From the language in our letters going back and forth we found out that we were not the first to have problems with this company.
If the BBB has listed this company as having an unsatisfactory report I would listen to them. We have found with our dealing with the BBB that the only reason the BBB would list them this way is because they have received a series of complaints that have established a trend.
Good luck!
| Author: | RCasement |
| In Reply To: | BBB REPORTS (posted by cautious consumer) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 19:35:24 |
Allways ask for at least three references with any vendor.
The BBB is prone to be nice to its members. You know don't rock the boat, or we both get wet. Yes I lack the child like faith in the BBB I once had, and for good reason.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by RCasement) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-01 21:18:36 |
RCasement,
I currently interact with the BBB, on a national basis, due to my involvement in the area of consumer relations/protection, and I have done so for the past several years.
It has not been my experience that the BBB is, as you stated in your post, "prone to be nice to its members."
If you have reason to believe that this is the situation at your local BBB office, or on a national level, I will be happy to pass whatever information you wish to provide me, to the BBB's national management committee for their review and investigation.
I am sure that the BBB would appreciate being made aware of any violations of their official practices and procedures guidelines.
If you decide to provide me the information that leads you to the conclusion you have drawn, I assure you I will see that it receives the attention it deserves, at the national level, and I will report back to you, and this web site, the BBB national management committee's findings in the matter.
If you are not inclined to provide me the information you base your accusation on, I hope you understand that it is important that you pass that information along to someone, at some level, within the BBB.
Jen
| Author: | KJ |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by Innovator7) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-02 14:02:33 |
Many cities/counties also have court records available online now. Always worth a look there to see if your chosen contractors name shows up. Check for the owners name also.
| Author: | small fry |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-02 15:13:18 |
It is not my intention to attack your premise. But I have it on very good authority that a company with whom I had been dealing had quite a few complaints through the BBB in the past as well as now.
If you look at their company's on line report with the BBB it says "member in good standing". If a company utilizes the BBB as a component of solving their customer service complaints (a little sacrcasm), shouldn't the BBB be aware of a trend which would point them in a direction to issue a bad rating. By the way this company is a member of the BBB...so I tend to understand some people's negativity toward the BBB.
I did business with this company based on three positive references (of course supplied by the company) as well as the BBB. We now have a complaint pending which is now going into arbitration. Had we known of the company's track record, we never would have done business with them.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by small fry) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-02 20:31:19 |
Small,
First, please understand that I spend a lot time, due to my line of work, filing complaints with the BBB, and in fact on occasion filing complaints about a particular BBB local office, to the BBB itself. Therefore, I know very well that the BBB is not a perfect organization.
Specifically to the comments in your post:
Small - "I have it on very good authority that a company with whom I had been dealing had quite a few complaints through the BBB in the past as well as now."
Jen - You don't need to just "have it on very good authority," due to the fact that your local BBB office should be happy to provide you the details of all of their dealings with all companies in your area including BBB member companies and non-member companies. If you feel that your local BBB office is not, or has not in the past, been cooperative with you, there are avenues of “appeal” that you may/should follow.
Small - "If you look at their company's on line report with the BBB it says "member in good standing". If a company utilizes the BBB as a component of solving their customer service complaints (a little sacrcasm), shouldn't the BBB be aware of a trend which would point them in a direction to issue a bad rating."
Jen - First, the BBB's online database is not, and therefore should not be considered, complete. However, the complete BBB knowledge base should be available to you at your local BBB office and if it is not, your local BBB office should be able to direct you to the complete collection of BBB archived information relating to any company that has had interaction with the BBB. As to the BBB detecting and then acting upon consumer complaint "trends," although that may be something that some, including myself and some within the BBB itself, believe may be a valuable service, it is not currently within the purview of the BBB's operations. As you have found, the BBB simply deals with complaints on a one by one basis and if all complaints have been resolved, that fact is recorded and published. You can however, even from what little data is available online, determine if a company has had multiple complaints filed against it even if those complaints have all been satisfactorily resolved in the eyes of the BBB.
Small – “By the way this company is a member of the BBB...so I tend to understand some people's negativity toward the BBB.”
Jen - I too understand why some may not have a completely positive view of the BBB. However, it has been my experience that it is much more effective to confront the BBB, directly, with my concerns than it is to discuss those concerns with third parties.
Small – “I did business with this company based on three positive references (of course supplied by the company) as well as the BBB.”
Jen - I find it hard to believe that the BBB provided you with a "positive reference" of any company. So, I assume you inferred/assumed, based on the fact that the BBB's online report provided you nothing, directly, to the contrary, that the BBB was a "positive reference" for the company. While that is unfortunate, I believe the BBB's online reporting system explains, albeit, perhaps, in an imperfect way, what the information they provide on that web-site means. And, I do not believe that they purposefully mislead consumers in support of member companies.
Small – “We now have a complaint pending which is now going into arbitration. Had we known of the company's track record, we never would have done business with them.”
Jen - While the BBB is, as I say above, not a perfect organization, they do provide a service that when properly utilized, by consumers, is the best service of it's kind that is currently available. That is not to say that that will always be the case. Nor is that to say that one should depend solely on BBB reports when evaluating organizations they plan to have contact with.
As I said in my previous post, if anyone has reason to believe their local BBB office, or the national office, is violating it's established policies and procedures, I will be happy to bring that matter before the BBB's national management committee for their review and investigation. The way to effect positive change, in any endeavor, is to take positive action. Negative action, such as product, company or organization bashing on web site message boards, may make us all feel better, from time to time, but in the end the “bad guys” are left lurking around the corner for the next unsuspecting consumer if we do not all do our best to confront them via whatever established, albeit imperfect, means we have available at the time.
Jen
| Author: | Ironic Poster |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by Jen) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-03 00:09:43 |
Jen
Thanks for posting. Please understand that some of those posting here are well educated in their areas of expertise, far more than you.
Your comment:
"First, please understand that I spend a lot time, due to my line of work, filing complaints with the BBB, and in fact on occasion filing complaints about a particular BBB local office, to the BBB itself. Therefore, I know very well, etc."
Small made a legitimate post based on a personal experience, yet you responded with general information. You then followed it up with what should happen, but it doesn't. That's probably why she's posting here as most do.
Before you speak on behalf of the BBB... you might want to share some of their own disclaimers, Such as:
BBB- "Information contained in this report is believed reliable but not guaranteed as to accuracy. Reports are subject to change at any time."
Simply put, their standards are not government regulated and/or acknowledged and they do collect money for membership. I know of a company that they give a satisfactory rating to that has lost a huge judgement loss to a class action suit for predatory sales to the elderly.
This of course has no reference to your comment of:
"So, I assume you inferred/assumed, based on the fact that the BBB's online report provided you nothing, directly, to the contrary, that the BBB was a "positive reference" for the company. While that is unfortunate, I believe the BBB's online reporting system explains, albeit, perhaps, in an imperfect way, what the information they provide on that web-site means." albeit, perhaps, in an imperfect way".
Will you support such a system that you have just backed previously? Are you willing to provide a personal email address and possibly a number to call for those that need your help to make it right? Come on Jen... make a difference.
| Author: | Jen |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by Ironic Poster) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-03 07:43:40 |
Moronic,
I always do my best to leave on this, and all, boards that I visit, intelligent replies to those who reply to my posts. However, in this case, I am not able to discern from your writing the point, or points, that you are attempting to make, with the possible exception of the following:
You write - "Please understand that some of those posting here are well educated in their areas of expertise, far more than you."
In regard to the statement above, while it is impossible for one not understand the statement itself, I fail to see what value it has other than for you to demonstrate your ability to highlight what is intuitively obvious. That is, of course there are people who visit this board that have expertise in areas that I do not. So, what is your point?
Everything else in your post is either unintelligible or has no real relevance to the matter being discussed except as it relates to your attempt to bash me, for some reason that is only known by you.
The simple fact is that unless you are able to make yourself more clear in the future, I fear that we will never have the opportunity to interact in a meaningful way.
Jen
| Author: | Richard Kaller |
| In Reply To: | RE: BBB REPORTS (posted by small fry) |
| Subject: | RE: BBB REPORTS |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-04 23:06:42 |
A company "in good standing" with the BBB that has had several complaints with the BBB is often better than the company that has no standing.
What you need to consider is how much volume, how many customers does a company service? A high volume company with a lot of consumer interaction is going to trigger complaints that are both reasonable and not reasonable.
The Key Issue concern should be does the company stand behind its work. If they have resolved complaints then chances are you have a good company.
A company with zero complaints usually does not do much volume so their exposure to a reasonable or unreasonable complaint is about zero.
Richard Kaller
CEO
Certified Contractors NetWork
http://www.contractors.net