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| Author: | Steve |
| Subject: | Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-05 18:08:35 |
Hello all,
I am in the process of buying a new house. The standard windows are Silverline. The builder's agent told me to check out their website, but I notice many different models on there. The agent is now checking to get more information for me regarding the model, specs, etc.
There is an upgrade option for Andersen 200 Series windows. However, the upgrade cost is $25,000 for the base house and an additional $17,000 for the conservatory that we opted for (granted it has a lot of windows, but still)!!. Spending $42,000 to upgrade the windows for the entire house seems a little extreme (actual, a lot). I expressed this to the builder's agent and she explained that in order to install these Andersen windows, 3 additional trades people are required. I'm not clear as to the reason for this.
I would greatly appreciate any insight as to the reason for the extreme upgrade cost and if it is worth it. Thank you.
Steve
| Author: | E-Z |
| In Reply To: | Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-05 19:55:00 |
I am definitely in the wrong business i think i will become a house builder installer from now on. With that mark up i only need to do 4 or 5 houses a year and i'm set.
Andersens 200 series are the economical line for Andersen. I can not see why they would need 3 other trade people to install these windows, i would ask what other trades. If you have the sizes you can go to www.1stwindows.com and get a quote for the cost of the windows that will give an idea of the product cost. Its like an upgrade on a car they just get real ridiculous. You are doing the right thing to upgrade your windows because as we all know builders use bottom of the barrel windows for their houses. Hey as long as they last 5 years thats all they care about.
Unless you have around 60 windows i do not see a reason for the 42000. That,s my opinion.
E-z
www.eazywindows.com
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by E-Z) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-06 03:55:30 |
Thanks for your reply. I will find out what the 3 trades are this week when I find out more info on the standard Silverline windows. I will post what I find out. Thanks again.
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-06 04:30:25 |
To charge $42,000 to upgrade to another cheap window, the trades must be as follows:
1. Armoured truck driver
2. Investment banker
3. Travel agent
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Window4U (IL)) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-06 05:18:40 |
Thanks for the laugh...I know, has me baffled too.
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by E-Z) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-06 14:58:38 |
more than likely he wilo need a lift operator and two extra laborer's for the job. I would assume the trades are all ready there framing? You must be in a Union Town. Boston, NY or Chicago. These are usually words of wisdom from these areas. I think Windows4U's remarks were more accurate. Not leaving out Secret Service Officer, Iron Worker and the Engineer! You have to have some one there to oversee installation!! Joking aside. If your paying that much for the Andersen 200 series you better get a kiss with it! Their top of the line window is the 400 series. I can't even see you paying that nuch for those. All though I should probably ask you. How many windows, and some sizes? You may have some odd sizes. Even so your builder may be getting his windows from a supplier he's never dealt with before. So he's not getting a break on his costs. I would strongly recommend pricing out Marvin Integrity series windows. Send me a copy of your window schedule and I'll price it out for you. I buy direct from Andersen. I can then show you what you should be paying for product. I'm not trying to pitch the sale. I'm just trying to give you a logical number to deal with. I have done some $50k door & window jobs. Lots of windows. We have a private home being built in our Lakes region here in MN. The customer bought a point on a Yuppie Lake here. They knocked down four old cabins and are now building one new one. All I can say is where's Robin Leech!! I can't even disclose who's house it is or I get in huge trouble. Now I know first hand the windows and doors are over 100K. So it can add up. Good Luck!!!!
guy@installationmastersinc.com
Guy
| Author: | Window man PA |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Window4U (IL)) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-06 18:11:03 |
find another builder the one your dealing with is a !@$#%$
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-06 21:34:35 |
Thanks for your reply.
We are in New Jersey and there are a total of 26 windows on the base house and 8 on the conservatory. There are 16 "single" windows, 8 "double" windows and 2 odd sized (not sure of the sizes). The conservatory has 7 single windows and 1 double window.
Are Silverline windows really that bad? Doesn't it matter what model they are using? Would you upgrade? Thanks.
Steve
| Author: | Dennis |
| In Reply To: | Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 00:03:46 |
Steve,
You didn't specify what sizes your windows are. However I am building a new home in Iowa and had bids for Anderson windows. I have about 26 windows, with some larger double windows with circle tops and triples with transoms. My bids for the Anderson 400 series were in the $13,000 range. So unless all of your windows are huge, it sounds like your $42,000 'upgrade' price is pretty steep, even if the builder is paying full retail for them. Most high end builders here use either Marvin or Anderson 400 series in any home over $350k. Cheap windows like silverline show up in homes less than half that price.
I would reccomend going to a local supplier of Anderson windows (even Home Depot carries them) and getting an idea what the windows really cost.
Regards,
Dennis
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 01:23:50 |
Steve, Find a new builder and window company. If your builder lets one of their Subs take advantage of you. Their not worth your time. I would assume your getting the coals in all directions. Seek another opinion fast. For $42k I'll come down and do it!!! Hand out some Pink Slips or grab a broom handle and get everyone in line. (Just kidding here. Don't smack anyone)
Guy
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 01:53:10 |
I agree with Guy. This is really sickening if the facts are exactly as you have desribed. What else are you going to get gouged on?
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Dennis) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 03:53:51 |
Thanks for your reply, Dennis.
Does it matter what model the Silverline windows are or are they all crap? Would you upgrade for that price or no? There are 26 windows in the base house and 8 in the conservatory. Thanks.
Steve
| Author: | Dennis |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 05:01:33 |
Steve,
I can't speak for all silverline windows as I have only seen them in a couple of lower priced homes. The ones I have seen were certainly not what I would put in my home.
Anderson 200 windows are not the best either, the 400 series are better. However a much bigger red flag is the $42000 upgrade price. Just to give you an example of Anderson pricing from several local suppliers
Anderson 400 series double hung 3'x5' $386
triple Anderson 400 series dbl hung 9'x6' $1352
Unless your windows are far larger than mine, the $42k seems outrageous (especially for the 200 series which I think is at least 20% less than the 400). Like Guy and the others said, it sounds like your builder is either trying to rip you off, or setting the price so high that you would never go for it. Either way, it doesn't sound very honest and I would wonder what else he is overcharging you for. You didn't by chance have to pay $87,000 to upgrade to granite countertops from Formica did you?
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Dennis
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Dennis) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 05:21:26 |
LOL!
[quote]Dennis wrote:
You didn't by chance have to pay $87,000 to upgrade to granite countertops from Formica did you?
/quote]
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Dennis) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 05:22:22 |
We already signed the contract for the house and everything else seems to be reasonable. Would you get the upgraded windows if it were your house?
I will get more info on the Silverline windows and post it. Thanks.
Steve
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Window4U (IL)) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 05:24:12 |
No, that upgrade is $8 or 9k, which is reasonable, I think.
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 12:06:58 |
Steve push your contractor to do his job!! Tell him your extremely unhappy with his choice of window people. It's not your job to go out and get the company to replace your windows. That's what your paying him for. Your just suppose to sit at home and make decisions. Remember most contracts usually have an out option in it. If the contractor can't keep an honest and fair relationship with you. (I sound like my wife) Your not in their best interest. I wouldn't break a contract. I would sit him down and remind him who's signing the pay checks though. Remember, like uncle Curly always said. Theres just ONE thing!!! He works for you!!!!
Your the BOSS.
Guy
| Author: | Dennis |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-07 18:09:44 |
Steve,
Without knowing the sizes of the wondows you are putting in it is hard to say for sure. But on my new construction, for 42 grand I could pay someone to come in and rip out all the junk windows the builder put in and put in decent ones plus have 20 grand left over.
Seriously though, I would take your window schedule and fax it to a local Anderson dealer (Use Anderson's web sites dealer locator) and ask them for a bid for the windows and installation in a new construction (if you are going to stick with Anderson I would go to the 400 series though). Most likely it will be far less than 42 grand. Then present this bid to your builder and ask him to use this supplier or revise his bid. Like the others said, he is working for you. At the very least, this should tell you if you are getting a fair deal or not from your builder.
Regards,
Dennis
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-08 04:17:42 |
I don't feel like the boss. It is new construction in a development and I feel like I'm at their mercy. There are so many buyers out there, they don't care if you leave. So if you want the house, you have to go along with them.
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-08 04:34:07 |
Steve -
Is this a subdivision that you just HAVE to own in? If so, you're at the mercy of the developer if his business is all that good. If not, you may be better off cancelling out and looking elsewhere. Let's face it - if you DO pay the 42K you're probably going to feel like you were ripped off. If you elect to just go with the included windows you're probably going to be berating yourself for not upgrading when you could. Neither will make your length of ownership there a happy one - it's one of those things that just gets under the skin and won't go away for most folks.
One alternative would be to ask the developer how much of a CREDIT he'd allow you if you furnished and installed your own windows. This does, however, have ramifications insofar as warranty is concerned and could possibly be a labor issue. A second alternative might be to get your preferred window rep out there and find out just how much it would cost to replace the windows in question after the developer windows are installed but before the inside is drywalled - or even after the home is completed but prior to move-in. Might turn out to be the best way - what the developer wanted $42K for could just as easily become $20K if done after the fact by a competent installer.
Just a couple of thoughts. Good luck.
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-08 06:54:06 |
Do you think the Andersen 200s are much better than the Silverlines?
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-09 00:49:43 |
Steve -
First of all, be aware that I'm just a homeowner and not a pro. With that being said, if you use the Search function and look up Andersen or the others you can see what some very knowledgeable people (the pros) and some not so knowledgeable (you and I - lol) have to say.
From what I've seen very few of the pros have much use for Andersen or even Pella in most instances. It appears that these companies are living on a reputation from the past.
I've sold the Simonton brand through private label (Sears) and they're ok - a pretty decent mid-range window. However, I had my first 4 Schuco's installed today and the rest will be done by the end of the week - so you know what I think is the best. Would I go for the Andersen 200? No way.
| Author: | Marv F |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-09 14:15:26 |
Part of your problem is you are comparing the lower end of two different categories: all vinyl vs vinyl-clad wood
Silverline, low-end vinyl:
http://www.replacement-windows.com/window-board/read.php?board=1&id=10608
Andersen 200, "economy" (lowest-rung) wood:
http://www.replacement-windows.com/window-board/read.php?board=1&id=10769
So, I hate to say it, but neither option seems very desirbable, to say the least; on that, there seems to be a consensus.
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-09 16:05:39 |
I think if you want a wood interior. Andersen will provide a worthy product. You do pay for the name. I don't personally like their jamb extensions though. If you mark or nick them up. You have to pull them off and replace them. We had some white interiors that were damaged during construction. We had the best painters we could find try and fix them. Nothing worked. Here in MN we have a local lumber yard making a wood interior with Aluminum exterior. The window is called the "Far North Window". SO far they are doing well here in this market. Check and see if you have a local manufacturer in your area. Never hurts to try.
| Author: | RCasement |
| In Reply To: | Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 12:55:28 |
Ask the builder for an allowance on the windows. This is what he pays for the windows. Take that and go find your own window installer. Not all builder will do this. Mine did on a house I bought in 1990.
| Author: | Steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Window upgrade for new construction |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-12 02:51:51 |
Recently, I found out that the Silver Line windows that are standard is the 2900 Series vinyl single hung low E glass with grids. The Andersen 200 series that are used as the upgrade is the Narroline double-hung vinyl-clad wood frame dual-pane low E glazing with Argon and grilles.
Appearance-wise, the Andersens look much more sturdier as the window depth is about 5 inches and the outer sill slopes downward for the rain. The Silver Lines are only about 2.5 inches in depth and look much cheesier and cheaper than the Andersens. However, as noted on the labels, performance-wise they are about the same. U-factor, solar heat gain coefficient and visible transmittance are about the same. The Silver Lines had air leakage at 0.1, but the Andersens did not list air leakage (I wonder why?).
If they perform the same, is the only difference that one is single hung and the other is double hung? Is this why the depth is so much different? What are the advantages of one or the other? Thanks for your input.
Steve