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| Author: | Cindy |
| Subject: | Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 14:27:05 |
I hope this goes on it's own thread and not as a reply to someone elses....
Ordered an Anderson French door and 2 sidelights to be installed via the Depot. They are sitting in my garage for a month now. The guy came today, on time. Upon arrival was when he found it was to be field mulled, they had him thinking it was just a patio door unit (like a slider). Apparently my job is more complicated. They didn't tell him he'd need the wood trim for the outside so he didn't have all the materials. The guy who measured knew I need 110 inches and that I only had 108 inches. He told me they could replace the 2x4's on the ends with a 1x4 and then it would fit. The guy today said they are not allowed,thru depot, to do any structural work which changing studs would be. He said without knowing what studs are under the wallboard it would be a bad idea. He also wasn't told or given the 1x4's anyhow, they didn't mention this needed to be done. Apparently the measuring guy wrote my opening down as 110 inches. The guy today said I need to have the wallboard opened and see what is there. The header may need to be extended and new studs added. This can be done, but not via the dpot installer and not today due to lack of materials etc.
I am cancelling the depot installation and getting my own contractor. It will cost about the same and depot just won't get a cut. Now you all are warned.....
Any thoughts or advice? He said to do it right would be 700-800, this is in New Jersey.
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Cindy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 15:57:00 |
Cindy --
I would not be upset with the Installer. He is correct in what he told you, that he shouldn't do any "structural" work (Home Depot is wise to have this policy). I agree that it would be a bad idea to tear out your studs. If I were you, I would go back to Home Depot. It appears that they were a bit too eager to sell you a door, and didn't exactly tell you the whole story.
Technically, they are correct. Replacing 2 2x4s with 2 1x4s would give you approximately 2 extra inches in your door opening. However, I wouldn't advise this. Although I am simply a homeowner, I do know a bit about framing.
If you were to tear off your drywall, what you would likely find would be a 2x4 stud, called a trimmer stud, supporting your door header on both sides. These trimmers are responsible for supporting your door header. Replacing these two trimmer studs with 1x4s would result in those two 1x4s supporting the header (as well as the load which that particular wall is carrying -- be it roof, or second floor, or whatever). I am not saying it CAN'T be done, but may not be a good idea. Obviously, a 2x4 is much more structurally strong than a 1x4.
The guy you spoke with most recently, talking about a header possibly having to be extended and new studs added -- he is trying to do it the right way. If it were me, I would also want to extend my header, such that I could widen the door opening while keeping those two trimmer studs as 2x4s, and not 1x4s.
Since you asked for thoughts or advice, my advice would be to get a refund from the Depot, and see if you can find a door that would fit your 108" opening. If this is not possible, then you might consider having the wallboard removed and having the door opening re-framed -- new header, 2x4 trimmers, etc. Definitely, the cheaper option would be to get a refund on the door and buy one that fits, if possible.
If you need any more help, let me know.
Steve
| Author: | Mark K. |
| In Reply To: | Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Cindy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 18:36:00 |
Cindy:
I had the same problem With Home Depot in NJ and an Anderson sliding patio door. For the first estimate, the guy supposedly came and measured when we weren't home. He left a card in the door. When I finally got the estimate from HD (I had to beg for it and literally go to the store myself to get it), the contractor listed all of this work that had to be done which include extensive interior work and major structural work. I do not know how he could estimate that as he never saw the inside of my house nor could he see through the old sliding door due to blinds. Any way, I cancelled the contract. I went to another HD and started from scratch. The sent out another local contractor who came out and really looked at it. He suggested a different size Anderson door (which apparently the 1st guy knew nothing about). I agreed and the estimate was $600 less that the 1st one. They came out and did it and did a great job. I can also suggest that you look in the phone books for a local carpenter and get a price from him to install the door. I would also suggest that you look at another supplier in your area such as a lumber/millwork dealer or building supply company. Most times they can get everything and more that HD offers and for competetive prices. They may also be able to set you up with a local competent contractor. Most of the times, the guys at these other suppliers have more experience with sizing doors and windows. Just my past experience . Good luck!
| Author: | Guy |
| In Reply To: | Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Cindy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 20:30:26 |
Hi Cindy, I read your email and feel your pain. First of all the measuring agent telling you what they would do is wrong. If HD has a policy on structural changing of the opening. He should have known before anyone. It's his job to measure and this greatly affects the outcome of a proper measure. Pulling out the head support studs is a very common move in certain applications. First of all you need to determine the load upon that header. If you have a three story house with a deck above. I wouldn't recommend the change. If its to your roof line or in an area that has support around it. It's not a bad idea. We always use oak 3/4" or 5/4" boards to replace the studs. The oak will have the same strength as the pine. In order to determine any of this you have to crack the trim off and inspect the opening. Many times the framers have already screwed the opening up and had to add or delete boards during construction. If they've added boards your in the clear. You can remove a board and your homeward bound! If they've already made it smaller your in a huge world of hurt. The other issue that could arise would be the header is to short for this type of adjustment. Many times the framers will cut the header short or get a small one to start with. If it's to short for the 3/4 boards your back holding the ball in the end zone trying to punt! We're talking a safety folks!!
I don't recommend pulling the old header out and making it bigger. Things can really go wrong with this. Plus it's not worth tearing your home up for two inches. I would demand HD order you the proper door and side lights. It's not your mistake to fix. If your patient with them and go to the store manager you can get far. Otherwise get your money back and start over.
First have someone tear your inside trim off and check your real stud to stud rough opening. THis will make a big difference in what you do!! Good Luck!!!
| Author: | cindy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Steve G.) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 01:19:47 |
Thanks for the input. I don't know if this clarigies anythng but...He did pull off the trim and the current door is pretty tight to the stud, looks like our rough opening still needs 1 1/2 inches or so. We didn't cut away the wall, so we don't know if there is only the one stud, or if there are more. He said something about a king stud and a jack stud, but I don't know what that is. If there is only 1 stud then I agree I need it proper size, if there are 2 side by side then am I okay with making one of them smaller? I am hopeful my header has enough length. He wants $700 to do the job (got his quote this pm) and another $150 if he has to replace the header, I provide the materials.
I would prefer to make this door fit, it is the closest I can get to my current size, otherwise I lose about 1 foot of the opening I am used to and would proably have to pay to close up the gap anyhow. I am getting a six foot door with two 1 1/2 foot sidelights, to go smaller I need a 5 foot french door with larger sidelights and the look would be different. Also, it took 4-6 weeks for the door to come in and I don't want to start over with re-ordering and somehow returning this door. (I had it home delivered--for some reason it was cheaper that way)
I went to H. Depot today and got back my installation payment, but didn't return the door because I did get a fair price on the door itself. I will get my own guy to put it in. After this grief I don't want to give HD a share of my install payment!
| Author: | Oberon |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 10:55:04 |
Hey! Welcome back. Great post.
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info (posted by cindy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 14:53:20 |
Cindy --
First of all, to help you with the terminology...
A jack stud is the same thing as a trimmer stud (which I called it in my post to you yesterday). Normally, there are two trimmer (or jack) studs in a door opening -- one on the left side and one on the right, and these two studs are the ones that support your header (and thus, they are cut to a length of about 82 inches or so in most cases -- to give you roughly 82" from the floor to the bottom of your header.
A king stud is the stud adjacent to the trimmer stud -- it is a full length stud running from the floor to the top of your wall (more correctly, from the sole plate to the top plate -- simply the horizontal 2x4s at the bottom and top, respectively, of the framed wall.
Sometimes, framers will frame a door opening too wide. And so, when the door installer comes, he narrows the rough opening by adding additional trimmers -- either 1x4s, or 2x4s, or whatever would make the correct size rough opening. In Guy's post, I believe, he told you that cutting away the drywall would reveal whether or not there may have been additional trimmer studs added to adjust your rough opening size. If there have been additional trimmers added, then like he said, you can simply remove one and you are in the clear.
If there is only one trimmer stud on each side holding up your header, then your choices are do some framing to adjust the size of the rough opening, or get a new door.
Guy mentioned the use of oak 1x4s as a possible solution in place of the 2x4s to give you a wider rough opening. I agree with him that oak is much stronger than pine, so this may be a good solution, I'm not sure. I definitely wouldn't go with a pine 1x4 in place of the 2x4, though -- particularly, as Guy said, depending on what that wall is supporting.
The other option is still to widen the header, thus allowing you to widen your rough opening. Guy's opinion was that things could go wrong with removing the header. Probably, what he is referring to is again the fact that if this wall is bearing a significant load, tearing out the header and the supporting studs is resulting in 6 to 8 foot wide weak spot (the width of your door opening) in the wall (albeit temporary, having no structural support in a 6 to 8 foot section of load-bearing wall can present a problem.
There are ways around this problem. But, you would probably want to make sure you have an experienced framer, who is familiar with structural issues, and not just some Joe Blow who tells you "yeah, I can build a wall..."
One other note -- don't let the "you have to supply the materials" part concern you. To build a door opening, you are simply talking about 4 8' 2x4s (about 3 bucks apiece if you have 8' walls), two 8' 2x6s (less than 5 bucks apiece), and a small scrap piece of 3/8 to 7/16 plywood (which is sandwiched between the 2x6s to give you a header that is 3 1/2 inches thick -- the thickness of your 2x4 walls). Basically, around $20 to $25 should do it for materials.
Finally, if you can wait a little longer, I'd still look into the option of finding a door that would fit your existing opening. I would bet that if you contact Andersen directly, you'd have a chance to find more options in door sizes than simply the 5' or 6' width Home Depot carries.
Steve
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | Hello, Guy! |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:01:46 |
Glad to see you back!
Steve
(P.S. I finished taping my windows, as well as sealing them from the inside with foam and fiberglass chinking. So my install is DONE! By the way, my builder's construction supervisor saw the windows after I finished taping them and asked me "Hey, where did you get the protecto-wrap stuff? We may need to start using that..." Again, thank you so much for the advice. And yes, I checked each window, as you told me to, and that drip cap piece or whatever from Marvin was installed on the top of each window.)
| Author: | Katie |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Guy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 16:46:36 |
We have doouble hung wood windows in the home we built 12 years ago. We are in the process of adding on--and we do not seem to find many wood windows on the market, but lots of vinyl. What are the pros and cons of wood vs. vinyl?
| Author: | cindy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info (posted by Steve G.) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 16:52:17 |
Thanks for your explanantion. I have the Anderson brochure and there is a 5 ft 3 in door, but no matter how I configure it with the door either 4' 11", 5' 3" or 5' 11" and the sidelights either 2' 1/2" or 1' 3" or 1' 7" I still come up 2 inches over or 6-8 inches less. My hubby doesn't want to "lose" anything compared to what we have now, which is an aluminum builder grade triple slider of 108". Anderson does make a triple french door, but we wanted 2 doors to open and with theirs only 1 door is active in the triple.
I really wanted the Anderson, I didn't care for the place that sells Pella, and I did get a good price on the Anderson. I ordered it "direct ship" from HOme Depot and it was several hundred less than if I ordered it the "normal" way.
Thanks again for your explanation. It makes me a little nervous..but at least I understand it and am less afraid of the cost. I better make sure the guy has insurance!
P.S. There is a triple switchplate that begins about 7 inches after the edge of the door. Is this likely mounted to the king stud? If it is then maybe there ar a couple of those jack studs to fill the space....Hoping...
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info (posted by cindy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 18:31:58 |
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info (posted by cindy) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing : more info |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 18:42:58 |
I understand your dilemma about not wanting to "lose" anything, and that you got a good deal on the Andersen door. It sounds like you want to keep that door, for variouos reasons.
From that perspective, I suggest you simply find a framer you trust, and have him re-frame the opening. Assuming the wall in question is not bearing too much load, you should be ok. Is there simply a roof above this wall, or a second floor, or what?
Anyway, you might get lucky and simply have to take out a trimmer stud (and perhaps replace it with an oak 1x4.)
You asked about the switchplate...
The electrical junction box that your switchplate covers is mounted to a stud, most likely. However, there is no way to tell if there is only one king stud or not. Sometimes, for added structural support, framers will sandwich two or three studs together, to use as a "king stud." This is to provide additional structural support on either side of your door opening -- since a door opening is a weaker structural entity, relatively speaking. Keep your fingers crossed!! But, there is no way to tell for sure unless you take off some wallboard.
In any case, unless your wall is supporting a major load, it really is not as hard of a job as it might seem. I would estimate that I, not a professional, could tear out and re-frame your door opening in a few hours (cut out the wallboard, tear out the old king / trimmer studs and header, cut new ones to size, assemble a new header, and install them). This would not count the time to repair / replace the sheetrock. Just the framing part. Anyway, even if you assume $75 per hour for 4 hours, you are talking about $300 (plus materials). Based on that, if you are getting estimates for over $300 or $400 or so (for the framing portion -- not including the door install), I'd be asking some questions as far as justifying such a high estimate.
I hope this helps.
Steve
| Author: | Guy Lundsten |
| In Reply To: | Hello, Guy! (posted by Steve G.) |
| Subject: | RE: Hello, Guy! |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-16 13:47:30 |
Hey Steve, Glad to hear it's going well. Keep up the good work.
Guy
| Author: | Guy Lundsten |
| In Reply To: | Hello, Guy! (posted by Steve G.) |
| Subject: | RE: Hello, Guy! |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-16 13:47:56 |
Hey Steve, Glad to hear it's going well. Keep up the good work.
Guy
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing (posted by Katie) |
| Subject: | RE: Home Depot Horrible Time Installing |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-16 16:25:17 |
Katie --
I am just a homeowner, and thus can't really give you much good advice on this particular question. But I noticed you didn't get any answers -- and probably this is because you posted within a thread referring to trouble with window installs (and thus many folks may have missed your post). If you want to get more attention to your question, you might want to post it separately, as a new topic, and not within an ongoing thread.
Anyway, as far as wood windows, there are lots of manufacturers out there (Pella, Marvin, and Andersen being 3 of the largest). But, there are literally COUNTLESS companies making vinyl windows.
I will offer my opinions as to the pros and cons of wood vs. vinyl...
Pros for vinyl-framed windows:
Low maintenance
Vinyl is a good insulator
Relatively inexpensive in most cases
Cons for vinyl-framed windows:
Some folks prefer the look of wood on window interiors
Vinyl comes in limited colors and shouldn't be painted
Some folks suggest that vinyl might warp over time
Some folks suggest that vinyl expands and contracts too much
Pros for wood-framed windows:
Can have low-maintenance exteriors (if cladded with alum.)
Wood is a good insulator
Wood is assumed by most to be stronger structurally
Many folks prefer the appearance of wood on window interiors
Cons for wood-framed windows:
Usually more expensive
Interior maintenance is higher (must be stained or painted)
Some problems with wood rot due to moisture in some cases
These are just a few thoughts. My personal opinion is that I prefer the look of wood, and thus like wood windows. However, I can see why many folks would prefer vinyl. I think it comes down to personal preference.
Steve