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Author: | MM |
Subject: | newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-18 17:14:21 |
Please excuse my ignorance about this stuff. I had seal breakage and had the glass replaced. One day after installation my 46x32 piece has 3 rainbows in it. I'm being told they are newton rings, common effect with thermopane glass. I'm insisting in writing that these will go away. I haven't been able to find any info about this term. Also, would it be more of a glass fabricator or installer issue? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by MM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-18 19:37:37 |
MM,
If you actually have Newton's Ring's, then you have a flawed IGU that should be replaced.
Newton's Ring's occur when the two lites are physically touching...this is NOT acceptable and is totally a fabrication issue.
Newton's Ring's are NOT a common effect of IGU's and whoever told you different is either covering their own butt, or else simply lack a certain amount of knowledge about thermopane glass problems.
There are a couple of other "issues" that can cause slight rainbow effect, but they are not called Newton's Ring's. If you can describe the specific location and appearance, I will suggest (best I can do without seeing them) if in fact that is the issue.
To emphasize, true Newton's Ring's are a flaw and one which requires changing out the IGU.
Hope this helped!
Keep in touch.
Author: | MM |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by Oberon) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-19 12:48:08 |
Thanks for speedy response. The 3 separate rainbows (2",1",2") are elongated in form (amoeba like), about center in the pane. The middle one is positioned slightly below the others.
Call me crazy but I don't think the middle one was lower yesterday and today the forms look larger. It may just be the time of day, way the sunlight is shining. Another shock this morning is that the inside of glass is sweating. I don't have the heat on and it is a little cool outside but no other windows are sweating. Thank you.
Author: | MM |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by Oberon) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-19 15:02:20 |
My second reply this morning: just thought I'd follow-up regarding the shape and location. It's now 10 AM, 3 hours later from my first reply. No dew on the inside of the window, the rainbow forms are much smaller and I don't even see the middle one. The locations are the same. Thanks.
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by MM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-20 02:43:37 |
The reason your glass is sweating is because you have no airspace between the lites where the rings are located. The glass is touching at the center. That is a fatal flaw in the IG and the glass / sash must be replaced.
If the window manufacturer rep or whoever tells you differently, they are wrong.
Please let me know their response.
Also, who's windows are they?
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by Oberon) |
Subject: | So any reply ? |
Posted At: | 2004-09-22 14:50:41 |
Author: | MM |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by MM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-22 16:38:27 |
Thank you for all the input. I just received a letter from the company I originally dealt with (purchase and installed) and eventually reordered under warranty the 3 damaged pieces. They say they will replace/install at no cost to me, but want me to sign off on an order form (read below); I don't want to shoot myself in the foot but I feel like I'm being strong armed. They told me over the phone the new glass had a new 5 yr warranty and now they say it doesn't, plus no guarantee. Read below. Thanks again. This is a great web site and consumer assistance. Is there somewhere I can applaude you.
"In researching the "rainbow effect" on your behalf, I have learned this can occur by 2 potential causes. The first is the cause I mentioned in the showroom. When two pieces of exact thickness glass are perfectly parallel this optical effect will occur. (i.e. You would have a "perfect piece of insulated glass".) The second cause, which is most likely what you are experiencing, is related to the thickness of the glass and the thickness of the space between the glass. Becasue this glass is large relative to the thickness (only 7/16", as the air between the glass cools this time of year, the two pieces of glass touch in the center. This effect, once occurring, may subside and may not. This being stated is the reason we are goin to replace this unit. Please understand there is no guarantee that this replacement unit will not experience this same rainbow effect, but it is the only option available at this point.
Also as for the warranty information, the manufacturer has informed us that the warranty does not extend beyond the Original Purchase date of 9/29/99."
Thus I have till 9/29/04
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by MM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-22 21:04:48 |
He was weasling a little, the two "rainbow effects" are quite a bit different phenomena, but he did at least admit that you are "most likely" experiencing glass touching at the middle of the lite. You most certainly are. The information you provided was indisputable.
Now, he stated "Becasue this glass is large relative to the thickness (only 7/16", as the air between the glass cools this time of year, the two pieces of glass touch in the center."...this is interesting because 7/16" is a VERY typical spacing for the airspace between two lites in an IGU. For glass with Low-E coating and gas fill, 7/16" is the optimum spacing for energy efficiency. In my interpretation he is trying to waffle by stating that 7/16" is somehow "too narrow" and that the glass is touching is beyod their control.
Garbage.
Last year there were about 58,000,000 windows made in North America. I would venture that a significant majority of those windows had an IG airspace in the 7/16" to 9/16" range and relatively few of those windows had issues with center glass touching. It can happen (obviously) for several reasons, some of which are not the IGU manufactures fault, but it has nothing to do with a 7/16" airspace.
All the major IG manufactures (that I am aware of) warrant against glass touching in an IGU. It is a standard industry quality clause, and should always result in replacement of the unit (I would say WOULD always, but one never knows)...that was why I asked who made the IGU.
I found it interesting that the gentleman mentioned that he had researched the cause of the "effect, on YOUR behalf"!!! HE is the salesman, YOU are the unsatisfied customer and he didn't know what it was that made you dissatisfied...very curious attitude and lack of knowledge on his part.
Anyway, at least they are replacing the bad units. IF the new units have the same problem, and the company refuses to cooperate, then I would suggest a lawsuit. I hate having to go there, but it would be fairly easy to get an actual IG expert to testify on your behalf. You would almost certainly win if they forced it to that point. I am very interested in the results of the replacement IGU's.
Good luck!
Author: | MM |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by Oberon) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-24 16:37:19 |
Thanks once again. Since the vendor now states warranty ends 9/29/04 I must take action soon. I’m trying to absorb everything to handle hopefully without further problem. Just to re-cap. Original install of replacement glass 9/29/99; they told me I had 1 year warranty. This summer I approached them regarding 3 damaged pieces and my total disatisfaction; they then said I had a 5 year. Installation was outside as the original store installer was no longer with them, on his own. I ended up using his services (another story because they made it difficult for me to use someone else I found who was less expensive). Anyway, I asked if these new replacements under warranty would then take one another 5 yr warranty. Verbally over the phone they said ‘yes’, but not on labor. Now they say ‘no’.
I want to make it clear this was replacement glass, not a whole window unit. The fabricator/manufacturer is Jersey Temper (per the vendor I dealt and am dealing with, all communication and correspondence is with them). They want me to sign off on their Order Form which states
“GLASS TOUCHING IN CENTER
SPACER TO NARROW FOR THIS SIZE
!!!!!!!!!!IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WARRANTY IS NOT EXTENDED ON
REPLACEMENT GLASS BEYOND
ORIG. DATE OF 9/29/99: EXP. 9/29/04
CANNOT GUARANTEE THE RAINBOW
EFFECT WILL NOT OCCUR OR
DISAPPEAR. THIS UNIT IS BEYOND
THE LIMITATIONS PERMITTED BY THE
MANUFACTURER.
As previously mentioned, they will replace at no cost. As a customer who originally paid $1600 and then $200 to replace damaged pieces, I am not asking for anything more than what I deserve. I would like to avoid legal involvement.
Do you think I should sign this Order Form, maybe adding the words “signed with protest”? Or send a Return Receipt Requested letter addressing the apparent quality assurance problem their manufacturer apparently has as well as the vendor’s staff who disperses incorrect warranty information. I would then agree and approve their replacing at no cost (but not include their order form mentioned above).
This just ruins every day for me. It seems every purchase today results in endless back and forth communication. Thank you much once again.
PS. I’m assuming IGU is insulated glass unit?
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by MM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-24 18:15:11 |
Well, an obvious question would be what spacer width do they recommend for this size glazing? I assume that they did the original calculations as to what spacer width to use. Somehow I don't see a typical consumer suggesting a particular spacer width to the Insulating Glass Unit (IGU -yep, you had it right) manufacturer.
Is the glass tempered? I had thought to ask that before, but when you mentioned the manfacturer's name I became really curious. Tempered glass does have a propensity to cup in the middle at certain sizes, particularly if the lite is square. Anything above about 36" square (or so) can have this as a possibility. When laying up IGU's with tempered lites at the "appropriate" sizes and shapes, I know that some companies are careful to ensure that the potentially convex shape is not to the inside of the IGU. Depending on the manufacturer this might be something of an informal procedure, but I know of several companies that watch for the possibility.
I am not a legal expert, but it seems to me that since the flaw has been identified and documented prior to the end of the warrantee period, when it is physically corrected is inconsequential. I would strongly suggest that you take this entire story to an attorney for a legal opinion. You have spent a lot of money with these people and I think a legal opinion might be worth checking into.
I am not suggesting a lawsuit, but just what that form they want you to sign would mean in the future if the same issue again plays out.
Good luck and stay in touch.
You might want to put the next message at the top of the page since this thread may "disappear" to the next page soon!
Author: | JohnAM |
In Reply To: | newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by MM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-09-26 15:13:41 |
46" X 32" is not a very large size for an insulating glass unit. I think, if the manufacturer would use 1/8" glass, the problem would not exist. If they used single strength glass, I could see the problem happening.
Author: | MM |
In Reply To: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass (posted by JohnAM) |
Subject: | RE: newton rings and thermopane glass |
Posted At: | 2004-10-04 21:13:39 |
Thanks for input. I'm disputing the "no guarantee" and proceeding forward with a positive approach that quality product, installation and service will remedy the issue. Nevertheless, I have lined up consumer affairs paperwork and an attorney referral. I'll keep you and Oberon informed. Thanks.