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| Author: | David Smith |
| Subject: | Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-25 17:51:26 |
I am considering tear-out replacement of 22 double hungs and 2 picture windows with either Kolbe & Kolbe Ultra Series Sterling or Marvin Ultimate. Our home is a 28-year old brick, center hall colonial in Atlanta. Having read all the comments about spacers on this message forum, I wish that one or both of these window manufacturers used TPS or Super Spacer. Triple pane might be nice also. Alas, they both use Cardinal IG double pane with XL Spacer.
Without getting into price differences, it seems that the main differences are as follows:
1. K&K has a DP of 50 vs. 40 for Marvin
2. Marvin uses extruded aluminum of frames and sashes vs. K&K using extruded on frames and "a heavy guage, 5052 aluminum alloy that is roll-formed," on their sashes
NFRC stats are almost identical with a slight advantage to K&K on Solar Gain Coefficient (.24 vs. .29).
How critical a difference is it that only Marvin uses extruded aluminum on the sashes? Should this automatically disqualify the K&K Ultra Sterling (which looks like a pretty good window)?
Thanks.
David
| Author: | Greg |
| In Reply To: | Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by David Smith) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-25 19:21:31 |
The importance of the extruded aluminum on the sashes will show itself during the construction process (more resistance to damage) and long term will not fade at a different rate than the frames. On darker colors this is particularly evident on the sun side of the house. Hope this helps!
| Author: | David Smith |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by Greg) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-25 21:31:51 |
Greg,
Thanks. Assuming that frames and sashes are white or off-white, would this be as noticeable?
Would the roll-formed sashes with extruded frames have any impact on durability or performance of the window?
David
| Author: | Greg |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by David Smith) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-25 22:07:55 |
The lighter colors do help. You will notice more chalking on the roll formed. The durability and performance of the finish are affected but it shouldn't be too bad. I would not make my final decision on that factor but keep in mind that is one of the major reasons for the price difference.
| Author: | David Smith |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by Greg) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-26 21:18:58 |
Sorry. I missed the fine print in the K&K material. The cladding on the Kolbe & Kolbe Ultra Series/Sterling Double hungs is described as follows:
"... .050" thick, 6063 extruded aluminum alloy is kerf mount, press fit and mechanically fastened to the wood sash with coped ends."
Unlike the Marvin Ultimate (which has only weather stripping on the back of the sash at the check rail), the K&K check rail has a structural interlock on the top and bottom sash. Even the better vinyl windows (Schuco and Simonton Impressions 9800) have a structural interlock.
I am becoming increasingly curious about the Marvin price premium. Same IG as K&K, same thickness of extruded aluminum on frames and sashes, slightly poorer SGHC performance and fewer standard colors. It can't just be clever marketing. What is the justification for top-end pricing?
David Smith
| Author: | Dean S |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by David Smith) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 13:52:03 |
I checked K & K's website and didn't see where their double hungs have extruded aluminum on the sash. The site refers to roll-form on the sash in several places and on several other models of window. "Kerf" refers to the frame. However you may be right. K & K has been making great windows and they may have done what you say.
Marvin has been the leader in quality for many years now. The 70% kynar finish and extruded aluminum on the sash set the bar very high for the competition. But the competition is catching up. Many others have switched to extruded on the sash without the kynar finish (Hurd, Winsor, Lincoln). Loewen makes a great window and has the kynar finish. Pella still has roll-form.
For Marvin a big part of the cost of the windows is the finish. Alcoa makes the extrusions and Valspar treats the aluminum and finishes it in the same building. Other companies use a polyester finish that is applied by the companies themselves. (select colors cost more because the extrusions are purchased in lower quantities).
I'm going to the remodeling show in Chicago on Oct. 7-9 and will surely see the K & K windows and will report back.
| Author: | David Smith |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by Dean S) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 15:27:01 |
Dean,
Thanks. The description of the extruded aluminum sash came from the Kolbe & Kolbe Product Catalog, page 224 which describes the Ultra Series/ Sterling Double Hungs.
Your point about other wood/aluminum clad window manufacturers challenging Marvin is a good one. The funny thing is that Marvin dealers seem to be so comfortable that they don't even know what the competition is doing. Some competitors, including K&K, recognize that Marvin is the big kid on the block. As such, these competitors are making product improvements that are targetted specifically at potential areas for improvement in the Marvin window.
I look forward to hearing your impressions from the show in Chicago.
David
| Author: | Peter L |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by David Smith) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-28 03:36:08 |
David,
Just one other suggestion. I don't know if you have had a chance to inspect Marvin and K&K windows up close, and compare them directly to one another, back and forth. We recently contracted to have some 30 windows replaced in our house, and I was able to compare a Marvin sample alongside a few other "competitors" such as Pella, Anderson, Jeld-Wen, Hurd.
Putting all the specs aside (extruded aluminum vs roll-form, etc) a close inspection revealed, at least in part, why Marvins are worth their price. The finish work and attention to detail are superior! Look closely at the seams in the aluminum, the application of sealants, etc, etc...all the fine details. It was an eye-opener. It just appears that the Marvin windows are assembled with a significantly greater degree of precision and care.
Having said all that, I have not seen a K&K window, so I just suggest that you look both the Marvin and K&K windows over with an eye for detail, and perhaps that will help you with your decision.
One final thought: Check out the K&K warrantee and compare it closely with Marvin's. That may also affect your decision. Again, I don't know much about K&K windows other than the highly publicized problem one home- owner had with their customer service (see http://www.leakywindows.com)
Good luck,
P
| Author: | David Smith |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by Peter L) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-28 17:44:07 |
Peter,
Good points. I absolutely agree with respect to Anderson, Pella and Jeld-Wen. We have seen the Marvin and K&K's within a short time of each other, but not side-by-side. The Home Show in Atlanta is this weekend. We hope to have an opportunity to do a more direct comparison.
Initially, we were looking at premium vinyl windows. We experienced what you described when we examined Schuco 4000 vs. Simonton Impressions 9800 and Alside Sheffield. There really was no comparison. The superior construction of the Schuco was blindingly obvious.
Consequently, when we went to the Marvin dealer we expected to be blown away by the obviously superior workmanship. Unfortunately, we weren't. Perhaps we were expecting too much. It looked good, but not fabulous. The latches for the tilt-in feature looked cheap. The top sash tend to sag downward when it was not locked into the bottom sash.
I am aware of the leakingwindows.com site. While I am not quick to dismiss such concerns, I recognize that manufacturing and/or installation problems will occur in any product. I just need to hear my friends complain about their Mercendes and BMWs to know this.
Thanks again. I will let you know my impressions of them side-by-side at the Home Show.
David
| Author: | Gordon |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by David Smith) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-29 01:19:22 |
David,
If you are seriously considering Kolbe & Kolbe products, I would highly advise that you don't write-off the problems listed in the Leakywindows.com website as something that can happen to any manufacturer or as an isolated incident. The problems have nothing to do with installation. The problems go far beyond manufacturing.
I'm sure if your friends brand new Mercedes or BMW craps out while under warranty, both Mercedes and BMW would honor their warranty obligations and take care of the problem.
Regards,
Gordon
| Author: | Peter L |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by David Smith) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-29 01:33:44 |
Thanks, David. I will be interested to hear your thoughts from the Home Show. Good luck.
Peter
| Author: | David Smith |
| In Reply To: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin (posted by Peter L) |
| Subject: | RE: Aluminum-Clad Wood Windows: K&K vs. Marvin |
| Posted At: | 2004-10-06 15:37:37 |
Peter,
I looked at both the Marvin and K&K windows several times at the Home Show. For better or for worse, I still didn't see an obvious quality difference in favor of the Marvin Ultimates. I did, however, notice that the wood jamb liners on the K&K did a more complete job of covering the guts of the window. I also confirmed that the interlocking check rail is only available on the K&K.
You would think that this would have settled matters. At the show, I also saw the Loewin windows. They are very attractive. I am having the dealer come out today to measure and give a quote. Has anyone on this board had recent experience with Loewin's double hung window? The double mortise and tennon joints between the rails and stiles look solid and the douglas fir is good looking. I just don't know how they perform.
David