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Author: | Oberon |
Subject: | Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-27 13:36:32 |
Just a fun little bit of statistics concerning spacer usage in 2003.
Also, a bit of a disclainmer. I cannot verify the accuracy of these numbers. I will say that every number I am using here came from more than one source. That source might have been an industry publication, a web site, even a phone call or two, so take the numbers with a grain-of-salt.
Remember, all numbers are approximate with a touch of rounding.
In 2003, 58,000,000 windows were manufactured. Of those, approximately 95% were IG of one sort or another (double pane, triple pane, heat mirror, even a few quad-pane).
That equates to 55,000,000 windows with IG. Of those 55 million, 12% or 6,600,000 were manufactured using aluminum
spacer.
29% or 16,000,000 were manufactured using non-metalic spacer - TPS, SuperSpacer, Swiggle, a few others.
So, that leaves 59% or 32.5 million manufactured with some sort of warm-edge metalic spacer.
Of the original 55 million, 37% or 20,000,000 used Cardinal's XL Edge.
Of the remaining 22%, 20% or 11 million (of the 55 million)used Intercept and about 2% used other options.
The 29% using non-metalic spacer is a very often repeated number, that was verified by EdgeTech folk, so I suspect it is very accurate.
Author: | Erin |
In Reply To: | Spacers (posted by Oberon) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-27 16:18:18 |
Swiggle is a metallic spacer wrapped in butyl.
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Erin) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-27 16:48:32 |
I agree, but for the purposes of the information that I used, Swiggle was considered a non-metalic spacer and Intercept which is also a "wrapped" metallic spacer is considered metallic.
I did not make the "rules", I only passed some (in my opinion) interesting information.
Author: | David Smith |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Oberon) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-27 19:45:51 |
Imagine the sea change in the IG industry that would occur if Cardinal migrated from XL to either Super Spacer or TPS. That would put 65%, or 36,000,000 units out of 55,000,000 in the non-metallic spacer category. It certainly shows Cardinal's ability to define industry standards.
Author: | Peter L |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by David Smith) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-28 03:15:16 |
But is it worth it to Cardinal? What do you all think of the performance of the XL Edge spacer compared to the non-metallic spacers? Would there be a significant performance enhancement for Cardinal IG if they went to such a spacer, and would it be enough to justify the expense and trouble?
Just curious to see what the experts think.
Peter
Author: | Windowtech |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Peter L) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-28 04:42:06 |
If you had three metal pots with boiling water on the stove. One had an aluminum handle, one had a stainless steel (aka XL Edge) handle, and one had a foamed rubber handle (aka Super Spacer) handle, which one would you dare to pick up without a potholder?
Author: | Man |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Windowtech) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-28 05:26:28 |
That's an easy one. None of the above. My wife does all the cooking.
Author: | Dan |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Man) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-28 12:32:16 |
How about the winter equivelant.
If it is bitter cold outside and there were 3 flag poles, one aluminum, one stainless steel and one foam covered, which one would you touch with your tongue?
Author: | Not in the BOX, Yet! |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Dan) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-28 16:29:37 |
To continue "Oberons original just for fun premise" and thinking of the 12% or 6,600,000 (wow that's a big #) IG units manufactured using aluminum. If those companies wanted to upgrade to any form of warm edge and considering the confusion (already noted) over "what is what" in spacers. "What" then would be the way to go (THINKING OUT OF THE BOX), as far as cost and ease of the production transition from aluminum to "the best spacer to do the task or the change over"? CARDINAL MUST KNOW SOMETHING, so why not forget about Super Spacers cost, Intercepts conditions, TPS's....etc. and go straight to Cardinal's XL Edge and get it over with? Easy for me to think out of the box, because I'm not in it yet, at this time.
Author: | Curious |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Not in the BOX, Yet!) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-28 19:56:08 |
What window companies use Cardinal XL edge??
Author: | Peter L |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Windowtech) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-29 01:28:31 |
That's a very intriguing question, but I don't think it's particularly relevant. First of all, metal-based spacers such as the XL Edge typically include a thermal break (incidently, just like the metal handles on some of the highest quality, professional cookware). Second, the insulating value of the spacer is only one, relatively small piece of the entire picture when one considers the overall energy efficiency of windows.
I just question how much a difference it would make IN THE REAL WORLD, not in the world of boiling pots of water, for Cardinal to switch to a non-metal spacer when manufacturing IG for customers such as Marvin Windows. I would wager that you wouldn't see a heck of a lot of difference in the overall U-value for a Marvin window with a different spacer.
Just my opinion...but I welcome others!
Author: | Not in the BOX, Yet! |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Curious) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-29 14:45:36 |
Don't know. New to this game. Trying to acquire information and knowledge, from those in the know or have been around the block. I think I am able to "think outside the box", when it come to windows (IG units) because Ive never been in the box to begin with. If you want I have a question that will challange those inside the box with their thinking. But first SPACERS, who is really telling the truth?
Author: | Windowtech |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Peter L) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-29 22:36:08 |
Where is the thermal break in XL-edge. Isn't is just a stainless steel bent spacer? The overall u-value is only impacted a point or so, but there is a considerable difference in condenstion resistance. I moved into a new house with windows having this same "warm edge" spacer system. The windows sweat and accumulate mold. I am looking into replacing the IG with a Super Spacer system.
Author: | Windowtech |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Curious) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-29 22:38:32 |
Andersen for one.
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Windowtech) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-09-30 02:09:17 |
The difference between SuperSpacer and XL in a sash is going to be something in the neighborhood of maybe 4 degrees at a 70-degree indoor to outdoor difference.
As a matter of fact, XL actually outperforms both Swiggle and Intercept in thermal-break efficiency - by about 2-deg or so.
If you are having significant sweating on the inside of your windows, and your windows are not leaking air anywhere, and you have any warm-edge spacer system, then I would suggest that you have a humidity problem in your home.
FenEx is the real expert in that area, but any of the warm-edge spacers, metal or not, results in a very significant temperature difference between indoor glass temp and outdoor and there are charts available that show the difference between indoor and outdoor and relative humidity in the home that will result in sweating.
With a 70-deg difference between indoor and outdoor glass temperature, you will need something like 45% relative humidity in your home to get sweating - I am not certain of the exact percentage off the top of my head, but FenEx may have the actual numbers handy, otherwise I can get them in the morning.
Author: | Oberon |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Windowtech) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-01 19:55:07 |
Actually, stainless steel is a relatively poor heat conductor and is quite commonly used as a handle on high end pots and pans.
Here is an interesting site for a quick experiment for a comparison of heat conductivity of various metals:
http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/thermodynamics/heat_conductivity/heat_conductivity.html
And for those who don't want to look up the link, here is a quote from the link:
"When the handle is heated, the heat is conducted along each of the rods. This heat will eventually melt the wax and make the flags fall. Because some metals conduct heat better then others, the flags will fall one by one, starting with the flag on the rod which best conducts heat (aluminum) and ending with the flag on the poorest-conducting rod (stainless steel). The poorest-conducting rod happens to be such a poor conductor that the aluminum rod melts before the flag falls off the stainless steel rod!"
Author: | Jackie |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Not in the BOX, Yet!) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-01 21:46:59 |
Just curious, but all good window companies have a guarantee on their seals no matter what spacer system is used. Why then is there such a big argument on this board about it? Anderson uses a steel spacer and I saw a recent ad for their Renewal windows with a guarantee against seal failure. Simonton gives a 20 year on both their windows using either Intercept or Super Spacer.
Also, I checked on U and R values, and the differences are so slight (between Cardinal XL, Intercept, Swiggle Seal, and Super Spacer) it cannot be felt you would need a temperature probe to tell.
Author: | Peter L |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Jackie) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-03 01:16:13 |
Jackie,
Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself. Better to pay more attention to air infiltration with poor installation, etc, factors which far outway spacer design in the real world (as long as it isn't just a cheap aluminum spacer)
Author: | Jackie |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Peter L) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-04 20:45:08 |
Hi Peter,
What type of windows do you have in your home? Do you or anybody else who reads this know anything about a window called Polar? A friend of mind has them, the windows are 10 years old and several seals have failed. She said the company was sold, but she cannot find her paperwork.
The name on the window lock says Polar.
Regards,
Jackie
Author: | Peter L |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Jackie) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-05 15:30:38 |
Hi Jackie,
We bought a house last year that has builder grade MW wood windows (MW does NOT stand for Marvin Windows or Milgard Windows...MW is the name of the company, but I don't know if it stands for something).
The house was built 10 years ago, and the windows are not doing too well, so we recently contracted to have all the windows (about 30) replaced with Marvin Ultimate Wood-clad windows. We shopped around quite a bit and considered a number of alternatives, but settled on the Marvins. As you may know, they have the Cardinal XL Edge spacer which may not be the best, but I feel it is probably pretty darn good, and as we have been discussing, I think that is just one piece of the puzzle.
I have not heard of Polar windows. Sorry,
Peter
Author: | Jackie |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Peter L) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-05 20:13:56 |
Wow, you are putting in one of the best wood windows. You must have a beautiful home. Where do you live?
I wonder why builders don't put in better windows, unless you have a custom built home, they put lower line windows in. There are so many good window companies, of course it must be cost. Everything comes down to money.
Jackie
Author: | Peter L |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Jackie) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-06 01:48:29 |
We live in Michigan where it gets reasonably cold, so we want a good window to keep out the elements. We also looked at fiberglass windows from Marvin and Milgard, but the Marvin ones (Integrity line) only come in certain sizes which did not match our windows. The Milgard fiberglass windows are nice but they have had some problems with the double hung design, which is what need.
Yes, it all seems to come down to money. If they can, a lot of builders will try to get away with the cheapest stuff!
Peter
Author: | Jackie |
In Reply To: | RE: Spacers (posted by Peter L) |
Subject: | RE: Spacers |
Posted At: | 2004-10-06 15:39:13 |
Hi Peter:
One more question then I will let you go. What glass package did you choose for your new windows? Did you get triple pane, what type of gas?
Good luck with your house.
Best Regards,
Jackie