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| Author: | Mark |
| Subject: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 17:07:25 |
Atlanta homeowner looking to replace some old single pane wood windows because of water damage to wood and because windows face due east with no shade.
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I've read enough of the posts on this website to understand that many of you think Schuco is an excellent window. So I find out that Schuco is handled in Atlanta by The Sigman Company (also called Sigman & Sigman Gutters). I look on the Atlanta BBB website and find:
"Closed Complaints
Number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 36 Months: 35
Number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 12 months: 22"
Are those numbers too high? Sigman also handles gutters and gutter toppers and roofs, so maybe it is par for the business.
I've had HD come out to give a me a quote. I know that love for HomeDepot is not given by you all, but that the window they offer (Simonton) isn't too bad of a middle choice and it does have a great sounding guarantee. Of course, the installers they send out that day could be wonderful or horrible or average. Look up HD in the BBB ratings and they have over 2000 complaints (but I bet that is nationwide).
As to Schuco, according to the Connecticut BBB website:
"Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau
due to not resolving complaints within the Bureau's time frame and due to an unresolved complaint."
So BBB ratings isn't the only way to go. I got it.
Oh, and I have had other window companies out to the house - some times they send a quote, some times they don't. Even if do get a quote, how do you trust a small company that may or may not be here tomorrow, and they may or may not have their windows rated, they may or may not build their own windows.
And, then I find out that just because you can order a double window with Argon or Krypton gas inside, may or may not mean there is that gas inside. And even if there is the right gas inside, it may or may not leak out over time, and I will never know it.
So I have to look at the quality of windows themselves, the ratings, the guarantee, the liklihood the guarantee will be honored, the abilities of the installers (and who knows which crew I will get), the BBB ratings, and the cost (and what is a good cost - like $30/sq ft). Anything I'm missing?
No wonder this is so much fun for us homeowners!!!
| Author: | also confused |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 19:06:34 |
Thanks Mark for the courage to post the dark side. Especially since this board is indeed a Schuco sales promotion engine.
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 20:01:54 |
The Connecticut BBB complaint and rating is from a now defunct dealer, and not from anything Schuco the manufacturer did wrong. It is not Schuco-usa.
http://www.schuco-usa.com
Schuco has taken care of all the complaints from this dealer except for one, and it is a deck installation. They have been working on resolving this one as well. Schuco-usa had no legal obligation to do this, but did so anyway.
As far as Sigman and Sigman, they sell GutterTopper, patio covers, roofing, siding and windows. They have 75 employess which makes them a very large dealer, so you will have to make up your own mind if this many complaints is too many.
I make no excuses for them. I am forwarding this post to them and will allow them the chance to do that for themselves.
http://www.sigmanconstruction.com/about.asp
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 20:20:08 |
Interesting posts.
"also confused":
It appears that you have an issue with the attention to Schuco products on these sites. If your comment was pertaining to blurb posts stating, "BUY SCHUCO", I'd agree with you. However, numerous individuals, including myself, have made strong, detailed points based upon significant information showing it to be a great product. This has been varified by numerous posts by homeowners who have it installed. Instead of a simple comment, please accept my invitation to suggest a better product... and back it with facts here... I'll be more than happy to share or debate the specifics. Some, including myself, promote what they believe to be better, although others do promote only what they sell. Show me a better value and product... and I'll promote it... but I will warn you... I know a little bit about windows.
Mark,
I actually liked your post... thanks for sharing. It makes a strong statement about "big names" and the BBB. A statement, not a condemnation nor a confirmation. The BBB has it's guidelines, and if a company doesn't respond in accordance... they get a bad listing. For example, if an impossible customer (unable to please) sends a report... it's logged as a complaint. If the contractor replies within BBB timelines but doesn't bow to the unreasonable... it's satisfactory. However, if the complaint is unreasonable and the company doesn't respond to the BBB within their time frame... does that mean they are a bad company? NO.
Based on volume, if a company has many, many complaints... I'd see it as a red flag. However, the other companies that get caught in the BBB web due to "Impossible Customers", are being publically damaged by whatever anyone wishes to file.
On a scale of 1 to 10... All things considered given the resources available through technology (including the net), I'd personally give the BBB report a "2" based on value of importance to a consumer. I state this with complete certainty as I realize that a vested interest creates obligation. Those that manufacture product, and install product, need more of what the purchaser provides... through satisfaction... referrals. The BBB survives regardless... and if they only posted the good... who would use them? Their sources are "word of mouth" and little more... but in mass quanities... worth listening to to a degree.
I'll follow up more as this thread unfolds... as I am sure it will.
FenEx
| Author: | David |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 21:15:26 |
I am also in Atlanta and evaluating various window replacement alternatives. We are considering Schuco. Please note that Sigman has only carried Schuco for roughly one year. Consequently, last 36 month data for Sigman is probably a poor proxy for Schuco. Given that Sigman has carried Schuco for such a short period of time, it would be interesting to know how many Schuco installations they have done vs. all other projects during the past 12 months.
David
| Author: | Mark |
| In Reply To: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by also confused) |
| Subject: | further... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-27 21:18:03 |
From my post, I hope no one gets the impression that I am for or against anything (yet - 8>) ). I didn't think that I was just posting about the dark side. Thank goodness for bulletin boards like this, and especially the dedicated posters that help out end-users (who have the same questions over and over again). I have used these sort of bulletin boards before when getting new HVAC (HVAC-talk.com), for plumbing questions, etc.
My post probably had way too much in it about BBB. If all I ever cared about was a perfect BBB rating, I would never do business with any big companies.
And I'm not against Sigman or Schuco - matter of fact, I have an appointment with Sigman tomorrow night.
Another thing funny about windows, when all is said and done, we cover them with blinds and curtains. I won't ever see them again anywhere as much as I am seeing them now. I don't believe I have ever seem window ratings that take into account that you will have blinds and shades and curtains on them.
Oh well, back to the hunt. And thanks for listening!
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-28 03:35:33 |
Mark -
You sound confused - Lol! Believe me when I say that most of us homeowners know the feeling :)
I am the proud new owner of 14 Schuco sliders and awning windows along with a 5 lite bow and I have to say, they are gorgeous. They've been in for about a week and a half now and we've still been getting some higher temps here in the Chicago area - and the Schucos have cut down a/c usage measurably. I highly recommend them.
As for the HD windows, they're a good middle of the road window made by Simonton. Not a thing wrong with them other than the HD price for what you get. If they turn out to be what you decide upon do yourself a large favor and find a Simonton direct dealer for BIG cost savings vs HD prices.
Whatever way you go, know that you're absolutely correct about the quality of the install. As the pros are wont to say - a great install can make a poor window good and a poor install can make a great window poor.
Best of luck.
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by also confused) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-28 03:45:51 |
Ya know, it's funny that most folks that come here are happy for the responses they get from the knowledgeable pros that frequent this site.
I'd just about bet that through your eyes (promo site), it's really strange that folks can ask about or use the Search function to garner info about almost all of the brand name windows available to the public.
I have to wonder, if the pros considered Pella or Andersen or Marvin to be the best and continued to say so to folks that asked, would you say this site is just a promo site for that brand? Would you prefer that the pros take each brand and give it equal time as 'the best' even if that meant being disingenuous?
Come on, don't be throwing that kind of garbage around - someone could take it seriously and subsequently make a very expensive wrong decision. As Fen Ex indicated, show a better window (build a better mousetrap) and people will flock to it.
| Author: | JFM |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-28 05:03:25 |
Mark,
I seem to be in the same stage of the purchase process as you.
Here's another take on the BBB ratings. It is harder to lodge a BBB complaint than simply filling out a web form. One has to show that other forms of resolution were sought, for example. Given that, for every complaint that is lodged, consider that there may be many others that have not been filed because the filing documentation and resolution period (can be up to a year) may dissuade the complaintant.
That said, a large company is exposed to more people who might file, so the number of complaints can be higher for such a company. You should also be examining how many complaints were resolved.
Finally, I think 22 complaints in a 12 month period should be raising a red flag. One of the companies that quoted on our windows does $35 million per year and has 0 complaints in the last 12 months and 1 in the prior 12-36 months. They also do gutters, siding and roofs in the Long Island, NY market which, IMO, leads the nation in difficult customers.
This thread also has a relevant tangent - references. Sure a company is happy to supply them, but surely they hold back the bad ones.
| Author: | stacey |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-28 19:20:58 |
I am also an atlanta homeowner looking to replace my single panes of glass wedged between some wood with actual windows. I have gotten quotes from Taylor Construction and Dura Craft. I would stay away from a contractor with such a large number of complaints (that's the attorney in me speaking). who else have you gotten quotes from?
| Author: | The Window man |
| In Reply To: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-29 12:42:17 |
BBB is as good as it's people and it's updates. Schuco is a WORLD class company that has plants in 33 countries and they do what they say they will do.
| Author: | Dear Confused |
| In Reply To: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by also confused) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-29 12:43:54 |
who do you work for? look at Schuco!
| Author: | The Window Man |
| In Reply To: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-29 12:46:25 |
GREAT RESPONCE!
| Author: | Indy Consumer |
| In Reply To: | Schuco, Home Depot, BBB, other choices (posted by Mark) |
| Subject: | Mark, check this out and see what you think... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-29 16:29:54 |
Mark wrote:
Oh, and I have had other window companies out to the house - some times they send a quote, some times they don't. Even if do get a quote, how do you trust a small company that may or may not be here tomorrow, and they may or may not have their windows rated, they may or may not build their own windows... No wonder this is so much fun for us homeowners!!!
Mark, I looked up a service I use, and they do have a chapter in Atlanta. However, before I recommend them, I'd like to say this is NOT an advertisement. I am NOT affiliated with them, I am only a satisfied customer. (I've had some confusion in another post.)
It can be difficult to find small/local companies that do good work. Try the link below to Angie's List. It's a consumer information company that uses subscriptions (you have to pay a yearly fee to access reports). The fee is $59/year. However, companies cannot pay to be recommended on the list, and companies cannot pay to advertise on the list. Only customers who have actually done business with the company can rate them, and they include lengthy reports about many of the jobs performed.
In researching products, it's true: You can find a lot of free information, through great services like this one. To find the reputations of local companies, it can be a lot harder. This is one resource you may appreciate. I've had tremendous luck in Indy, saving money on a variety of repairs. I even received a $250 discount on my windows, which more than paid for the yearly fee. Good luck!