Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

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tdog
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Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#1 Post by tdog »

There has been some really great information posted here about about how Simonton switches from solid to slotted drainage plugs when you specify higher DP ratings, and how you can't select sash/frame reinforcement without also selecting higher DP ratings, with their associated slotted plugs and higher air infiltration.

I am mostly interested in the Reflections 5500 and possibly the ProFinish Brickmould 600 double hungs.

Can you order a window with the slotted plugs, and then purchase and install the solid plugs, or are the plugs welded in place or otherwise permanently affixed?

How does reinforcement work on multi-chambered frames (such as the Reflections 5500)? Is a reinforcing beam just fit into the largest chamber of each reinforced lineal, or are other chambers reinforced also? Is reinforcement more effective on a more hollow frame (such as the BM600), since thicker reinforcing beams can be fit?

Thanks much!

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#2 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Have you looked at any good window yet?
theWindowNerd

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#3 Post by Windows on Washington »

5500 isn't a bad window by any stretch, but not typically thought of as a "great" window either.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#4 Post by HomeSealed »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:23 pm Have you looked at any good window yet?
theWindowNerd
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, I agree with WoW. Not a terrible window. That said, with the type of questions you are asking, you sound like a very discerning buyer when it comes to performance and quality... If that is true, Window Nerd's comment rings true. I don't believe that window will deliver what you may be looking for, and certainly not since they sold off to Plygem, and now yet another big corporate merger to form Cornerstone. Will they go out of business anytime soon? Not likely, however these mergers and acquisitions typically result in a product that was once held in high regard becoming stale and watered down by bean counters to save 4 cents here and half a cent there. The end result is often a product that was long in the tooth to begin with, and now with diminished quality. Just my $.02

tdog
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#5 Post by tdog »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:23 pm Have you looked at any good window yet?
theWindowNerd
I have looked at Sunrise Classic and Soft-Lite Elements. There are no Okna dealers in my state. My nearest Sunrise (Classic) dealer is 80 miles away, but no Vanguard or Restorations dealers in my area, and I would prefer a stronger frame than the unreinforced Sunrise Classic. The nearest Soft-Lite (Elements) dealer who would give me a quote is 140 miles away.

While I'm aware that the Soft-Lite Elements is technically the better window, and while the quote I received is entirely reasonable and within budget, I have settled on Simonton instead for several reasons:

1. I think the Simonton 5500 is the best locally available vinyl window. I happen to really like my local Simonton dealer, I like supporting local businesses, and I feel safer buying locally in case something is wrong with the windows.
2. I want to purchase a large (80x72) matching picture window, which is slightly larger than Soft-Lite is willing to make (max 144 UI), while Simonton will make it (max 168 UI). The Soft-Lite dealer suggested a 3-lite slider as an alternative, but I'd prefer a straight picture window.
3. I'm getting new construction windows (w/ nailing flange), and I like that the Simonton is available with an integral flange (with a full 3 1/4" behind the flange, inside the rough opening). [I know that Soft-Lite's snap-on flanges have their corners welded and are pretty solid.]
4. I kind of like the even sight lines of the Simonton (even though I was initially put off by their thick lower sash).
5. I would have to rent a box truck or trailer to get the Soft-Lites home.

I know that's a lot of detail. I definitely appreciate you trying to steer me towards higher-end windows, but I have carefully weighed my options.

The weep holes and drainage plugs on the Simontons are an unfortunate design decision, but I think they'll be nice enough windows for my modest home. I'm just being OCD about the DP/reinforcement thing... I'm mostly getting 36x54 DHs, plain white, in SW Michigan. I imagine the unreinforced 5500s *should* be strong enough to avoid eventual sagging.

tdog
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#6 Post by tdog »

HomeSealed wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:11 pm
TheWindowNerd wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:23 pm Have you looked at any good window yet?
theWindowNerd
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, I agree with WoW. Not a terrible window. That said, with the type of questions you are asking, you sound like a very discerning buyer when it comes to performance and quality... If that is true, Window Nerd's comment rings true. I don't believe that window will deliver what you may be looking for, and certainly not since they sold off to Plygem, and now yet another big corporate merger to form Cornerstone. Will they go out of business anytime soon? Not likely, however these mergers and acquisitions typically result in a product that was once held in high regard becoming stale and watered down by bean counters to save 4 cents here and half a cent there. The end result is often a product that was long in the tooth to begin with, and now with diminished quality. Just my $.02
Those are some excellent points! I do have a couple of local ProVia dealers, and the ProVia Endure seems comparable in design to the Soft-Lite Elements. I had gotten the impression that it might not be comparable in execution though, and that I might be safer with a known, mid-level window (Simonton).

Thanks!

masterext
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#7 Post by masterext »

The soft lite elements is much bettter designed than the provia endure. That said, the provia endure is much better designed than the siminton. I would go with the Elements, its a no brainer.

tdog
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#8 Post by tdog »

masterext wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:58 pm The soft lite elements is much bettter designed than the provia endure. That said, the provia endure is much better designed than the siminton. I would go with the Elements, its a no brainer.
Is the Elements enough better to justify buying from a non-local dealer, and losing a few inches on the picture window (maxing out Soft-Lite's UI)? I'd like the picture window to be the same model as the DHs. I don't mind driving 140 miles each way to get the Soft-Lites, but it seems risky in case there is a problem with one of them...

WindowsDirectCinci
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#9 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

The double hung and picture windows are going to be a different frame anyway. I really see no reason to buy all the windows based on one large picture window. 1 Simonton picture window and the rest a premium product like the elements would be fine with me.. also the dealer may deliver for a small fee. Or a uhaul for a day would cost less than $100 and the windows will be in there for a very long time.

I’d certainly prefer the reinforcements but that window is kind of bulky and your windows aren’t super large so I don’t sagging should be an issue. Those welds would bother me though

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#10 Post by TheWindowNerd »

For the large picture window has the quoting dealer requested a varinece on the max size.
I do that when the published max is not large enough. In particular I feel more fine about doing that with PW as there is no operating hardware to overload. Sometimes it requires thicker glass or tempered to get them to do it. Wind load and its effect on seal failure rates is important.

masterext
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#11 Post by masterext »

The exterior on any window brand will look different from a double hung since its a different profile. This applies to simonton, soft lite, or provia.
I would still do with Elements, its a heck of a window and the best choice out if the 3, it also has kevlar reinforcement.

tdog
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#12 Post by tdog »

Thanks everyone!

I know that matching the PW model with the DH models doesn't really matter, but I sort of like the idea that the frame lineals will look the same or similar from the inside. No big deal though.

Does anyone have experience with Soft-Lite's nailing flange? Is it solid enough to use by itself without also screwing through the jambs? Are there multiple setback options, or just the standard 1" or 1 3/8"?
TheWindowNerd wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:17 am For the large picture window has the quoting dealer requested a varinece on the max size.
I do that when the published max is not large enough. In particular I feel more fine about doing that with PW as there is no operating hardware to overload. Sometimes it requires thicker glass or tempered to get them to do it. Wind load and its effect on seal failure rates is important.
He did not. I didn't know that was even an option, but I'll definitely check into it!

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HomeSealed
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Re: Simonton Drainage Plugs and Reinforcements

#13 Post by HomeSealed »

The nail fin is fine to use and screws through the jambs may not be required, but shimming certainly is.

As for the choices, are you installing these yourself I take it? If so, I wouldn't really think twice about the dealer being a little farther to get the product that you want. If this was an "installed" package, then there are more considerations, but to source product alone, get the better window. In my opinion this is not a close comparison, the Elements is much better both on paper and in reality. I have some reservations about the Provia product, but I'd choose that over the Simonton as well.

Lastly, I agree with Nerd's comments about a size variance. If you express to the SL dealer that Simonton (an objectively inferior product) is willing to make the pw size that you need and that would sway your decision, you should hopefully get an affirmative response in making an exception for you.

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