Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

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morningwood
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Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:42 am

Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#1 Post by morningwood »

We are in the market to replace 10 single hung vinyl windows in north central Ohio. Our current windows have an integrated J channel that the siding terminates into.

I've met with two different contractors over the past week or so. One was suppose to be from Okna but he wanted to sell me a Provia window and the other was a Provia dealer. Provia windows are made about 100 miles from me so I understand why they are pushing that brand. They make a really good door and their Endure line of windows seems pretty nice. Soft-Lite windows are a no go as one of our local dealers is Zen Windows and the other started asking me some questions I wasn't comfortable answering. We have no other Okna dealers in the area too. There is one about 1.5 hours away but I am not sure if they are willing to travel this far for 10 windows. Any other brands to look into ?

Contractor A wants to do replacement windows and then use coil stock to make a water tight seal between the window and the house. I asked for more details and the response I got was very vague. I'm a little concerned about water infiltration.

Contractor B wants to take the siding off of the house and use new construction windows. He said they would caulk the flange of the window and then tape it. He did tell me that they would have to alter the jams and sill plate possibly. I'm okay with them being tore out and replaced since they are faded really bad from the sun. We even talked about ordering windows with full jams. Contractor B did inform that they could possibly crack the siding during this time of year and requested we possibly hold out until we have some warmer weather.

If the quotes were to come back around the same, or Contractor B's being a little higher, isn't the method that Contractor B is going to use to replace the windows superior to what Contractor A wants to do ?

Delaware Mike
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#2 Post by Delaware Mike »

Removing the siding and putting the exact same sized flanged window is the only way that I personally will do your type of project and we do it all of the time, at least once a month. My crew and myself have a lot of vinyl siding experience and we don't rush, thus we don't very much vinyl siding cracks even when very cold as we are careful. I like the fact that the house doesn't have a modified appearance with this method and no interior wood or sheet jamb significant jamb loss is incurred typically beyond 1/8" to 3/8". With slip or express methods, I see the non-flanged inserts that are downsized often set back in too far and it looks odd to me.

Removing siding, jamb cutback, stool removal and rip or cutback, and everything else with this method is about a 3x slower process and is a lot of work, thus the price may add quite a bit.

masterext
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#3 Post by masterext »

The first guy is probably bending a J with the aluminum coil to accomodate the siding. There is nothing wrong with that.
Some guys will add some trim board and butt up a vinyl j channel for the siding. I have no problem with any. As long as they are using spray foam and some good sealants, you should be fine.
Removing siding and doing new construction will be the most expensive by far.
What question by soft lite bothered you?

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#4 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I also am interested in what question turned you sour.
Based on DEMikes process you should expect a $400 to $500 delta.
I have only Done that type of install once. To me the real issue ids no water infiltration, no air infiltration, and a good finished look. We almost always use the "express method. We have had no issues with it in 40 years. BUt like Mike we are careful and do not move at blinding speed. It is much better for all to do it right the first time.
Personally I like the traditional trim package added. I like the classic look of interior casing. If I do drywall returns I like bullnose verticals and square top, very cool modern look.
theWindowNerd.com

morningwood
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#5 Post by morningwood »

masterext wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:46 pm As long as they are using spray foam and some good sealants, you should be fine.
Contractor A does not use foam. He said they do not like to use foam because there is a possibility of bowing the window. He said the use fiberglass insulation. I have a list of questions that I have asked both contractors and that is one of the questions on my list.

morningwood
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#6 Post by morningwood »

masterext wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:46 pm What question by soft lite bothered you?
Called the number for the local dealer and a woman answered the phone. I told her that I was interested in talking to someone about replacing 10 windows. She then asked me for my name and phone number. I gave it to her and then she asked for it again about 15 - 20 seconds later. During that time there neither of us were talking, but I could hear her typing. I then started asking questions about the windows, she proceeds to tell me that she'll need to take my information down and she'll have a sales person contact me. Her second question was "Are you the homeowner" I said "yes". Her next questions was "Do you own the home with someone else". I told her that was none of her business and hung up. None of the other companies I've talked to have asked for this information so that is why I felt it a bit intrusive.

IMHO - all that company should care about it whether my down payment and final payment bounce. It is none of their business to know whom I own the house with if anybody.

In my last job, I worked with a team that did investigations on folks that have had been phished by a bad actor and had their credit ruined by answering one email. I'm always very hesitant to give any business more information about me than what they need to do the job.

masterext
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#7 Post by masterext »

at first glance it may seem intrusive but they go no further than what they asked you. why do they ask those questions?
they want to make sure you own the home and not just a renter who has no authority regarding home improvements.

you arent just looking to buy the home and just looking for an estimate to be used as a “ bartering chip” at closing which is a huge waste of time for the contractor.

many times when only the wife makes a buying decision without the husband, the husband may want to make changes that just cant be done and vice versa. example, wife ordered windows with grids and the husband didnt want then but its too late to change the order. that causes big problems.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#8 Post by HomeSealed »

On product, softlite should have more dealers in your area than Zen. Look for dealers that carry the Elements or Imperial LS line. Okna is great if you can find it there, Polaris's top windows are nice as well. Your take on Provia seems about right. Superb door, the Endure window has nice features, most guys would put it a step down from top tier though.

On installation, we never drop siding. There are too many things that can go wrong in the process for my liking. We do like to install with nail fin when the cost is feasible for the homeowner, but we typically cut back the siding and add trim. That, or downsize and cap the exterior. Those two as well as "express" are all industry recognized as acceptable, but they do each offer various levels of protection. Your first contractor should be able to answer more about his methods if you want to go that way. His rationale for not using foam is not accurate, so if anything is a red flag, it may be that. For what its worth I don't have an issue with the other methods, we just use the option(s) that in our experience have delivered the best balance of protection for the homeowner and potentially least problematic install.

Lastly, as far as the appointment, the other guys have spoken well to that already. If they won't come see you unless "all decision makers are present", than that is probably a red flag for a high pressure pitch coming down the pipe. There is nothing wrong with asking though. Keep in mind that much like the project itself, there is "skin in the game" on both sides. I'm sure that if you wanted to pay for an appointment they would do it however you want, but they are coming out for free, and while its true that they are trying to earn your business, they also know many common pitfalls and may simply be trying to avoid them.
-Making multiple trips and saying things twice or more for the benefit of the other person that wasn't there
-One person choosing something that the other didn't agree with, etc. One of my post difficult situations ever was where a husband and wife weren't on the same page, and come installation, they weren't happy. Instead of taking the blame, they blame the contractor... Not a fun situation.
-Not to mention the legal aspects of a home improvement project and the needed notification that comes with that.
Overall, if there were no such things as shady sales guys, I don't think that many people would fear the logic of wanting to simply have everyone involved on the same page.
Again, you DO want to avoid a sleazy sales pitch, but be careful not to throw out a company that is simply proactive about preventing mistakes in the process.

morningwood
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#9 Post by morningwood »

Thanks for the insights @HomeSealed and @masterext

morningwood
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#10 Post by morningwood »

HomeSealed wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:28 pm On installation, we never drop siding. There are too many things that can go wrong in the process for my liking. We do like to install with nail fin when the cost is feasible for the homeowner, but we typically cut back the siding and add trim. That, or downsize and cap the exterior. Those two as well as "express" are all industry recognized as acceptable, but they do each offer various levels of protection.
I probably should of added this to my original post but I didn't think it was pertinent information. Our house has 15 total windows. We put a house addition on about 7 or 8 years ago and installed 5 windows as part of that project. Those 5 windows will not be replaced since they are a good Low-E Argon filled double pane window. Those windows also have an integrated J channel. We did that to match the rest of the house. In order to keep things consistent I'd like the new windows to have that same "look".

I'm assuming that would limit the installation methods then ?

Delaware Mike
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#11 Post by Delaware Mike »

We have a lot of situations in which the homeowners have shutters really close together and cutting back siding and adding trim boards will allow the shutters to be re-positioned together closer, thus an express/downsized window or same sized window must be opted without adding capped trim boards or Azek. Not having any aluminum capping and caulked seams has an advantage long term in regard to how easy the exterior of the house can be cleaned. An all vinyl new construction window can be easily part of the power washing of vinyl siding, with capping, one has to kind of hit that with a soft brush and it's pretty rare ant total OCD to find someone scrubbing their caulking beads which gets quite dirty over time.

With every install method there are pros and cons. The con of this type of project is obviously the increased labor cost. If myself and my guys can do a traditional retrofit type replacement window project on an old home with like 10-15 windows in a day, with this siding drop kind of gig we are only looking at like (6) windows start to finish. Also, since you may have wood jamb extensions and stool, or sheet rock returns with corner beads, adding the spray foam presents some challenges as with total unfinished interior walls one has unfinished jambs to the perimeter around the window to the rough opening to inject the spray foam.

morningwood
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#12 Post by morningwood »

Received quote from both Contractor A and B over the last couple days.

Both want around $800 a window. Contractor B has a better glass package and has full 2x6 jams as part of his quote. As I stated before, I am okay with the windows jams being replaced since they are faded so bad from the sun. Contractor B said it would take them about 2 days to replace all 10 windows.

Personally, I'm more confident in Contractor B getting the windows water tight and I like that they use spray foam instead of fiberglass insulation.

I'm going to call Okna today and see if they can give me second closest dealer to my house.

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toddinmn
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Re: Integrated J Channel - New vs Replacement

#13 Post by toddinmn »

Interesting user name.

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