Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

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Oberon
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#16 Post by Oberon »

+10 to recommending WoW.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#17 Post by TheWindowNerd »

"While I agree that Pella has made progress, there is a big, hairy, stinky, steaming caveat on their "lifetime" warranty. Damage due to condensation is still only 10 years of coverage (not lifetime), and that is the most common source of premature failure for wood windows. They did fix the design flaw that caused them to rot from the inside out so that's a plus, but the "lifetime" warranty can be very misleading."

All warranties can be very misleading.

A 10 year limit with proper maintenance is a reasonable requirement. Paint, stain, and sealing should be expected with any wood product.
Do you think it would be any different with an Okna bay or bow with laminated plywood, or unpainted-stained-sealed jamb extension?
wayne

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toddinmn
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#18 Post by toddinmn »

I see warranties mostly as a marketing tool and typically has nothing to do with on how long a manufacturer thinks there product will last.
I would not take a Hyundai over a Toyota based upon its superior warranty Nor would I take Pella over a Marvin. The best product is typically the one that never warranty work followed by service and honoring claims.
Another vote for WOW.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#19 Post by Windows on Washington »

I will catch up on some emails today/tomorrow and get squared away with you soon.

Black Mammoth
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#20 Post by Black Mammoth »

Thanks everyone. I hope you all had a good new year. It has been helpful getting different perspectives. Is CPC and PCC the same thing? I was assuming that it stood for Certified Pella Contractor or Pella Certified Contractor. Is Pella better than RBA? I was under the impression it was the other way around. Also RBA is cheaper than Pella, but I need to find a PCC to see if that is really the case :)

With the suggestion of making a big window, my wife and I are now considering a different window configuration. If we go that route, then I think the loss of visible glass with the Okna is not much of a concern for the great windows.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#21 Post by TheWindowNerd »

CPC old lingo, PCC new lingo.
WME or PCC have more flexibility with full line access than RBA.
A certified AW contractor or installer has the same flex as a PCC.
That is an option I did not mention. Would not do RBA, you are getting to little for your money. If you want AW product look for a AW certified contractor/installer.

If you go to a single half round with extended legs, you are right you will not have any visible glass issues with Okna, but you will still have the welds.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#22 Post by HomeSealed »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:32 am "While I agree that Pella has made progress, there is a big, hairy, stinky, steaming caveat on their "lifetime" warranty. Damage due to condensation is still only 10 years of coverage (not lifetime), and that is the most common source of premature failure for wood windows. They did fix the design flaw that caused them to rot from the inside out so that's a plus, but the "lifetime" warranty can be very misleading."

All warranties can be very misleading.

A 10 year limit with proper maintenance is a reasonable requirement. Paint, stain, and sealing should be expected with any wood product.
Do you think it would be any different with an Okna bay or bow with laminated plywood, or unpainted-stained-sealed jamb extension?
wayne
Different in what way Wayne? Different like comparing a product that is a negligible percentage of a given manufacturers production (bay's and jamb extensions), with a product that is the vast majority of what another produces (wood interior windows)?

Here's the fact of the matter: The number one failure point on wood interior windows, Pella or otherwise, is degradation of the wood due to moisture (most often condensation). In this area we are tearing these windows out in 10(or less) to 15 years in most cases, and that is after having been painted/stained/sealed. Is it not highly disingenuous to come out and tout a new LIFETIME warranty when said warranty doesn't even cover the very thing that leads to the most failures!? Give me a break. You are correct that there are areas in many warranties that can be somewhat misleading, but when it doesn't even cover the main thing that fails, and on the vast majority of their windows, that's on another level entirely. I'd put this on the same level as the bogus energy savings guarantees from a few years ago. Let's call it what it is: a highly misleading and purposeful attempt to dupe consumers. I would not be surprised at all if at some point Pella is forced to roll back their pronouncement of a "LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY", and/or more class action lawsuits come there way in 9-10 years from now as the consumers that purchased these realize that they have no recourse for their rotting windows. Pella has not "put their money where their mouth is" IMO, on the contrary, they have put their mouth where the money is in trying to sell more windows based on a "lifetime" warranty.

@Todd, if a warranty has nothing to do with how long a manufacturer thinks a product will last, then why only 10 years in this case? Perhaps because they know that the PRODUCT WON'T LAST MUCH LONGER than that, and they will go out of business covering rotted windows under warranty. I will agree that manufacturers that offer lifetime warranties are considering the average amount of time that the typical home is owned by one party and other factors that might limit their exposure, but the expected service life of the window is a big factor in that calculation. While again, warranties can certainly be overstated in marketing, they are far more than a marketing tool. A very wise and successful guy in this business once told me that companies stay in business as long as they can afford to service their work, and that is very true. I service product and installs over 15 years old, and I know of others that have been around longer servicing product and installs over 30 years old in some case. Warranties do matter.

@Black Mammoth: You may not gain any glass space with Pella or RBA over Okna. In fact, depending on models, the Okna may offer more glass area when the same installation style is considered. If you untether the product choice from the installation type (pocket vs full frame) it will provide a clearer picture to base your decision.
Between RBA and Pella, while I'm not a huge fan of RBA, I'd choose that line over anything that Pella offers.

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Randy
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#23 Post by Randy »

Windows on Washington is not only an excellent source of quality products, they also provide a wealth of experience and that can save you money, while not compromising the overall job. I’d highly recommend them.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#24 Post by TheWindowNerd »

"Different in what way Wayne? Different like comparing a product that is a negligible percentage of a given manufacturers production (bay's and jamb extensions), with a product that is the vast majority of what another produces (wood interior windows)?"
Brandon: No difference about volume, just the same issue with wood no matter who makes it, it has to be sealed and maintained. Most of the wood rot issues here in the NE were due to poor MFG, AW, Marvin, and Pella all over the past four decades have had design or production flaws that caused rot.
AS far as warranty and service go, I have said to my clients for the past 40 years that a reasonable warranty is the best choice. There is a third generation contractor near me that 5 years ago closed and reopened operations to escape the burden of his fathers lifetime warranties. As alluded to, I have been servicing my clients for the past four decades, Brett, my son is taking over, hopefully another 3 decades to go.

wayne

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HomeSealed
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Re: Window Suggestion Help - Vinyl vs ? - Have Quotes

#25 Post by HomeSealed »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:16 am "Different in what way Wayne? Different like comparing a product that is a negligible percentage of a given manufacturers production (bay's and jamb extensions), with a product that is the vast majority of what another produces (wood interior windows)?"
Brandon: No difference about volume, just the same issue with wood no matter who makes it, it has to be sealed and maintained. Most of the wood rot issues here in the NE were due to poor MFG, AW, Marvin, and Pella all over the past four decades have had design or production flaws that caused rot.
AS far as warranty and service go, I have said to my clients for the past 40 years that a reasonable warranty is the best choice. There is a third generation contractor near me that 5 years ago closed and reopened operations to escape the burden of his fathers lifetime warranties. As alluded to, I have been servicing my clients for the past four decades, Brett, my son is taking over, hopefully another 3 decades to go.

wayne
I agree that the issue with wood is the same, I was only questioning the correlation that you seemed to be making. I hope you would agree that it is much different for a manufacturer selling primarily wood windows to offer a Lifetime Warranty (except on the wood), than a vinyl manufacturer that would do the same thing, but that fact only being applicable in the rare case of a bay window or factory applied JE for the vinyl offering. IMO, the former is rather dishonest, while the latter is simply an exception to the rule. One would hope that a professional installing company would explain these items to homeowner's either way, but we've both been around this business long enough to know that is unfortunately not the case more often than not.

On the workmanship aspect, I agree, there are too many cases like that. Poor workmanship or product choice leading to being overwhelmed by warranty claims, poor management of finances (not charging enough to run a sustainable business), etc. We've had a small handful of companies like that pop up around here in recent years where the "brains" of the operation is a guy that who's company failed, and he latches onto a new "front-man". A couple of the slimier instances involve the shady company type guy hooking up with a long time sub, creating essentially a new company, brand, etc, but then advertising that they've been in business for 30 years because of the lineage of the sub.... Every time I think that I've seen all of the ways for guys to be shady in this industry, someone comes along and proves me wrong.... Fortunately you are one of the good guys Wayne, I'm sure that we both wish there were more.

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