Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

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HomeSealed
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#31 Post by HomeSealed »

Helpers make more than $15 an hour, let alone installers who in many cases make double that. Now double that amount to get to the true cost of labor to a company after payroll tax, comp ins, etc... and that is before any margin to cover overhead or dare I say profit. I understand your desire to deconstruct the pricing to attempt and find what is truly fair, but it is far more nuanced and complex than it would appear on the surface, not to mention can vary greatly from one company to the next.

Regarding the "Okna lawsuit" that was a decade ago. None of the performance ratings changed, this would have nothing to do with any recent brochure changes. I already discussed the issue regarding "x's" vs percentage based claims. That lawsuit situation was an Okna dealer that had marketing materials showing foam fill in some areas that were not/could not be filled. The dealer was sued and Okna was simply included as the maker of the window. They went above and beyond obligations to help those homeowners, even though once again, the performance was as promised and certified either way. You have no worries in dealing with them, that lawsuit was much ado about nothing and the result of a scorned ex-employee.

On the financing, if they presented you a price for another product including the financing but the ecolite was cash based, I'd expect that to change. Unless you were talking retail at the start, no company can absorb 20%, especially not at those prices.

Regarding the stats and data, we've done our best to provide you with that. What you do with that info ultimately is up to, but I wish you the best either way.

Ricknez
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#32 Post by Ricknez »

windownoob94
you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to cost and wages unless you are using statistics from Uganda.
You seem hell bent on presenting your case for a cheap window. I suggest you go to your local hardware store. purchase the cheapest window you can find and then go on Craigs List to find an out of work shoe salesman who installs windows on the weekend.
Im not sure if you took any business classes in college but if you did I assume it was at Grand Canyon University?

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toddinmn
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#33 Post by toddinmn »

I just realized I have not been charging for a plan fee , my prices are going up 20% and I’m cutting my labor rates on Monday.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#34 Post by WindowNoob94 »

HomeSealed,

Staff pricing wise for OKNA DEALER in PA, not Wisconsin, I can't be too far off, if this is a starting wage $10/hr and with some experience behind your belt, it's MAYBE 15/hr, then, maybe $20 after you become the team leader. When we're talking about my area where the windows will be installed, with possibly different tax laws, you can't possibly know the wages here with taxes added in and I'm telling you exactly what it is.

Payroll tax, workers comp, unemployement tax, benefits, etc is definitely not DOUBLE the cost of employee wages. It's 8%-10% social secuirty, 10% unemployment and it's about a dollar a day for workers comp which is well made up for with 1 window and installation. Which still at 2 employees paid at 15 per hour equaling 40 per hour for those 2 employees as I stated is still generous, because it's really 36/hr with all those taxes included.

Btw, you forgot to mention your employees wages and unenployment taxes are tax credited/deducted. So make those wages and taxes added more like 16.5/hr. Small business? There's another credit for cheaper operation, decrease the overall operation price again.

In PA, you're not going to be making anywhere near double of unless you're a licensed carpenter. I know this, because half my family works in construction.

Window World pays around 15, with experience.

https://imgur.com/0JhqwtU OKNA Dealer proof of wage.

https://imgur.com/mUMf9Lh My brochure to compare logos, so you don't think I'm bamboozling you.

The Ecolite wasn't cash based, it was 0% financing for 4 years. It's a risk a business is willing to take to make a profit, otherwise it wouldn't have been offered. Most companies that offer 0% interest for X amount of time, aren't expecting to take a hit. Pella offered 0% financing for 18 months, but I turned that down quickly, there was no way I could pay 23,000 to risk having to back pay all the interest from day one, if it wasn't paid off within that time frame.

You did provide me a lot of information, you also told me the Design Pressure is a good number to look for when looking for structural strength, which is what my current argument is about.

Neither are reinforced, Both are DP50, both are uPVC, VERY close regarding tightness tolerances, but at an expense of a $100+ more per window, if I get the price per mentioned.

It's not like we're talking about bridges where if a measurement of 1/8th of an inch off will cause a collapse significantly sooner as if OKNA will last significantly longer due to hardly being much tighter.

The lawsuit wasn't about nothing, it was about OKNA falsifying marketing material about their material in the windows, passing it on to WindowWizards then to consumers. It states that directly in the lawsuit and they lost.
The one most affected has been Windowizards, a window distributor based in Levittown, Pa, and the manufacturer, OKNA Windows based in Bristol, PaThe investigative piece alleged that certain windows distributed by Window Wizards, which were advertised as foam-filled, were found to have little or no foam inside The news station also made mention of some marketing materials supplied by OKNA to Windowizards that were alleged to have been inaccurate
Shabel & DeNittis was lead counsel in a consumer fraud class action against windows retailer Windowizards, Inc. and windows manufacturer OKNA Windows Corporation. In the settlement, defendants agreed to inspect and repair approximately 10,000 windows owned by 1,175 class members who live in New Jersey and purchased windows from the defendants between January 1, 2006 and July 31, 2009. The lawsuit claimed that Windowizards and OKNA made false statements and promises in the marketing literature used to sell the windows. Specifically, the marketing literature stated that the ComfortWeld Windows contained foam insulation in the window sashes and frames. The lawsuit alleged the windows did not contain foam insulation as promised by defendants.
Window Inspection and Repairs for 1,175 Homeowners – Cooper v. Windowizards Inc. and OKNA Windows Corporation 09-cv-5509
For an OKNA dealer, I think you're fair and informative, but maybe a little biased, because ya know, you sell OKNA, it wouldn't be good business to say Window Maker X over OKNA over an insignificant difference, so you do kinda have to defend it more, otherwise how would that look to others? Which I understand. I do like that OKNA uses wheels instead of metal pulley to assist with the opening and closing of the window. The wheels will probably last longer than the pulley will last in the Provia.

It's just like I can't just tell someone at my Hospital as I'm working, that the hospital down the road is better, because that wouldn't end well for me. Or comparing specs of Apple phones and Samsung Galaxy phones, they'll preform around the same, but you'll be paying a higher for the Apple. Well it use to be like that, now they're priced pretty close together. It's pointless, haha.

It's really isn't due to emotion, it's due to the performance/structural differences to cost difference, it doesn't justify an extra 30 per month, which will equal a few thousand extra for a product that will last maybe a few years longer, which I won't see unless I stay put, doubtful, again based on the numbers.
Last edited by WindowNoob94 on Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:19 am, edited 8 times in total.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#35 Post by WindowNoob94 »

Ricknez,

Image

I'm using material costs from Lowes, which I'm sure they charge more for materials to the regular customer, than what they charge to contractors, not by much, but it'll make a difference over the years. 5% is 5% savings if you do go through lowes for some materials.

I didn't take business classes, but finding out the cost of materials, wages in a location, and tax rates at the federal and state level, then adding, subtracting and multiply numbers with decimals isn't that hard.

I got my wages based on numerous advertisements for hiring on local WINDOW INSTALLERS Facebook pages (they weren't general contractors or someone who picked it up as a side job.) as I was looking for Full-time Window contractors to do work and using my head. I don't know if you guys are hiring licensed carpenters to install your windows, but they're not here, otherwise the wage would be more like $30/hr, which definitely would reflect into the price.

You do realise wages are different based on state/area and the amount of competition will reflect on how much an employer will pay, right? If not, you do now.

A good example, in other states, OKNA installers are charging around $900 per window for the same window that I got for $723.

I purposely over priced things to make up for margin of error.

For 2 people at $40 per hour, which includes taxes, especially when it's 100-150 per install which took 45 minutes each window from my OKNA dealer. The staff are full-time, until they get laid off from Jan to March, they definitely have plenty of work or there would be no full time staff. We'd still be in excess of a few hundred dollars per week, per employee that goes into the overall profit in just this excess that I've added to account for taxes and benefits.

Let's look at my numbers through my OKNA dealer:

Installing 10 windows.

Let's say they're being paid 20 per hour per staff, at 50 per hour. @ 7.5 hours for my install. $375

I bet the OKNA 500DX is around 350 to 400 each at 10 windows. We'll go at 400 each. $4,000

My OKNA dealer uses SolarSeal, they used 4 containers for 10 windows, that's $24.

Trim around the windows, that's $9 per window, for 32" x 48" windows, $90.

Trim Nails, which they used 3 per piece of trim, a box of 2,000 is 18 bucks, lets keep being generous, $18.

Furring strips, $8 for a bundle

Shims, lets say a 12 pack for each window, which isn't even close, lets say $5 bucks per window.

Low expansion foam insulation, $90 for all.

There are no office staff, the owner handles everything. I guarantee you the companies that do have loads of office staff will be reflecting that into in price, how else would you pay them?

In total, $4655 at 465.5 per window to supply and install.

I have no idea how much a financing payout would be around for a 3.99% interest, rate but I'd imagine it would be too much or they wouldn't have offered it.

My price to pay, $7,230.

$206.5 profit margin each after materials, business tax, wage tax, and materials.

Employee wages, benefits, windows, materials, are all tax deductible, which will decrease the tax liability, so a tax rate at 35% isn't likely, because paying unemployment alone is given a 5%+ tax credit, So even if my number for the cost of my window is off and it does cost more, that works in the businesses favor, because it's still deductible.

Sure you need money for rainy days, which will bring the profit margin down overall, it's still going to be a decent margin though.

I'm not hellbent on choosing the cheaper, but near identical window. I just can't understand if the materials are the same for structure, how is one worth more than other, because the difference of a tightness of .03 definitely isn't going to allow the OKNA to last significantly longer. Just like how the ProVia Aspect's better water tightness by .35 psf isn't going to allow it to last significantly longer than the OKNA 500Dx.

Here's the stats:

OKNA 500DX: U Value: .25, SHGC: .29, VT: .53, CR: 62. DP50, AI: .02 uPVC. Tested rain @ 8psf.
ProVia Aspect: U Value: .27, SHGC: .31, VT: .56, CR: 61, DP50, AI: 05, uPVC Tested Rain @ 8.35psf

When you look at stats like that, I don't understand how you can justify an extra 150-200 per window, for such a small difference, you won't even see until you're at the age you're put into a nursing home.
Last edited by WindowNoob94 on Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:46 am, edited 6 times in total.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#36 Post by WindowNoob94 »

toddinmn:
I'm sure the plan fee isn't much, or it most definitely would be reflected into the price and I bet you the wages and cost of living in my state are completely different than in your state or area, so no need to cut your staff's pay.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#37 Post by WindowNoob94 »

Staff pricing wise for OKNA DEALER, I can't be too far off, if this is a starting wage $10/hr and with some experience behind your belt, it's MAYBE 15/hr, then, maybe $20 after you become the team leader.

But in PA, you're not going to be making anywhere near double of 15/hr unless you're a licensed tradesman.

Window World pays around 15, but they have numbers to back up that wage.

https://imgur.com/uUcY6zY OKNA DEALER Hiring post

https://imgur.com/mUMf9Lh OKNA Brochure with logo to compare, to ensure I'm not making it up.

How about this, if I e-mailed engineers from PennState, supplying the information that both OKNA and ProVia offer for the 500Dx and the ProVia Aspect, would the engineer(s) agree that the OKNA 500DX would be worth the extra $200 when it comes to structural and performance to cost ratio? They're a research university, they'll most likely answer it.

In my opinion, no. It's a brand preference at this point.

I will e-mail them and post pictures of the e-mails here, no blocking out names, phone numbers, Job titles, etc, if he/she's okay with it.

I will bet 50 bucks he/she says the difference is insignificant when it comes to structural and performance to the cost difference. I've already had a mechanical engineer that works on doors and windows state this to me, but he was a friend, so I won't to include him so no one thinks it's a biased decision on his part.

The only information provided to the engineer(s) will only be what OKNA and ProVia provides to the consumer.

See ya'll when I get a response.
Last edited by WindowNoob94 on Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#38 Post by Windows on Washington »

I think you have done the math in your head and have an idea in mind as to what you want to spend or what the project is worth. That is totally fine. I didn't want to pay Jeep $860 to change the plugs in my wife's Jeep either, so I busted my knuckles doing it. It was worth it to me to do that.

While you cite the example Window World and their labor rates to support your claim of prevailing wage, I most likely accomplishes the exact opposite of your aim. That would be the equivalent of citing the price of a steak at "Steak and Shake" and using that as an anchor point to tell the folks at Mortons that their prices are too high.

Regardless, you have two good options and I haven't seen any mention of how you feel or if you have vetted either of the two installers. There are plenty of folks that have massively overpaid for a RBA window just as there are a ton of folks that have gotten hosed by bad WW installations. Until you can establish some qualitative differences in the installation companies, you are just talking numbers...which isn't the full story.

Either way, I think as much advice and information has been shared that can be shared. The decision is squarely in your court and you have a good bit of information at your fingertips at this point.

Ricknez
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#39 Post by Ricknez »

With the novels you have been writing in each of your posts, you are better off using your time more wisely and installing windows yourself but yet you keep coming back and writing these long, drawn out essays.You don't take anyone's advice so why not just end it and move on.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#40 Post by WindowNoob94 »

Windows on Washington, your post dropped my anxienty by a lot, thanks. It seemed more neutral.

I guess I was too focused on numbers.

You're right, I can't use it as an anchoring point, but it can be used as a rough guide. Since starting at another company is $10/hr.

I already know my Okna dealer does a great job, his work and reviews reflect that. The windows are cosmetically nicer. I like how Okna uses wheels to assist with opening and closing. If I want best of the best go with OKNA.

Provia windows aren't as cosmetically nice. The installers have great reviews. Only bad reviews based on a ripped screen that wasn't covered by warranty. Slightly worse ratings. The installation staff seem to know what they're talking about.

They're both reputable dealers and manufacturers.

I probably am going to ultimately choose OKNA because they are more aesthetically pleasing and they would match all of my others. I was never 100% stuck on ProVia, but choosing between the 2 is hard, keeping consistent designs in a house would be important. I did have ProVias scheduled to be installed, because it needs done ASAP and the price was lower.


Ricknez,

I would like to install windows myself, but as soon as I start touching stuff I'm screwed, lol.

My replies are based on how much information another person supplies, because I can't touch everything with a few sentences, then it looks like I'm not bothering with reading posts if I skip parts. I'd definitely be wasting all of your time if I didn't bother to give the courtesy of at least reading and responding to everything.

The time that I'm writing these replys, I'm usually playing a game. It was a good brain exercise.

Delaware Mike
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#41 Post by Delaware Mike »

The EcoLite series doesn't fall into a "good, better, best" line up like what you may typically see from a window manufacturer. There is a substantial drop off from the Endure and Aspect to that Ecolite. I've installed all three series and can tell you that first hand. It's not even something ProVia prefers to offer or is proud of. It's there to ensure a dealer has a "last ditch" price effort. It's very similar to the Essentials series by Sunrise. These manufacturers don't really want that low-end of product in their stable, but they prefer 100% of a particular dealer's overall orders as any order from another manufacturer opens the door for that supplier. If this was a rental or flip, no big deal, but I wouldn't install them in anything that I owned.

Ricknez
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#42 Post by Ricknez »

While I appreciate your candor regarding your lack of installation experience, I wonder if that is on par with your business acumen.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#43 Post by WindowNoob94 »

Delaware mike,

Yeah after comparing and the explainations given to me along with your suggestion to go to the Aspect at minimum, I understand why now.

Ricknez,

My knowledge for both is subpar, haha. I'll admit, there's nothing compared to real world experiences to add in relation to those numbers provided. I have no problem admitting if I'm wrong, as soon as I realise that I am.

I hope I didn't come off as someone who thinks businesses are terrible. Business owners take all of the risk, where as an employee can just up and leave, so they deserve the profits that they can scrape.

I definitely would not have the motivation to run a successful business, it would fail faster than it takes to obtain the business license. (It's doesn't take long here.)

Hopefully I can maybe even negotiate to get at least OKNA 500 series without the Deluxe if it does boil down to price. It's still a good window with only an energy efficiency rating difference.

WindowNoob94
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#44 Post by WindowNoob94 »

I'll admit, after thinking back, that I was most likely subconciously pushing the ProVia over the OKNA when justification for something is opinion based, which was unfair to keep picking at it.

HomeSealed stated why he thinks OKNA is worth 200 more and I should have left it at that. I'm sorry Homesealed.

Thank you all for your time.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#45 Post by Windows on Washington »

No need to apologize. We are a bunch of business owners and contractors here. We don't believe that "language is violence" based on the current political culture.

What's not translated in our comments is the nearly 100 years of experience between us. Heck, maybe more at this point.

We know what we know from experience and going more cheaply on product and/or total...rarely benefits the person spending the money.

Again, we are not suggest a Bugatti Veyron here where a Toyota Camry would do the trick when we talk about Okna vs. Provia.

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