Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#46 Post by HomeSealed »

We are all just trying to help, no ulterior motives, take it for what ever you feel that its worth. As WoW mentioned, there is a LOT of experience, and many millions of dollars in windows installed among the group here, the advice offered is nothing but sincere and factual (on the numbers stuff). Again, I do hope that it all works out for you whichever option you choose.

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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#47 Post by toddinmn »

With the home work you’re doing , I would consider becoming a window contractor . Your numbers are off but obviously most of us won’t see the $1400 Stimulus check. ( that’s chump change btw) . If you take this approach with everything you purchase your cost analysis will maybe work but it would drive you crazy. I am with you since I am very cost conscious myself and I am in this business because I ran the numbers like you, but used more realistic numbers.
The money is there but you are leaving out way to much . As with any business you gotta put your time in and I put 20 plus years before I went on my own and I never earned less then $15 even going back to the early nineties. Once you do all that and your ready to go on your own you need a bunch of liquid cash or a good line of credit. Then you gotta find customers and if you have employees you find even more customers to keep rolling once you have hired people.
I’ll stop there even at that point you’re working 100 hour work weeks . We could go deeper into over head cost But I need to stop. The reality is yes, we are making good money but we put are time in, we are supplying most often superior product backed by lifetime experiences .

uncle eddie
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#48 Post by uncle eddie »

These guys are being too nice. Window noob, you literally have no idea what the he!! you are talking about on any level. Ricknez is spot on. You came here for advice, and instead of listening to these successful professionals trying to help you for literally nothing in return, you are arguing with them and disparaging their intentions in some cases? Seriously??? I guess in your last post(s) you apologize a little but after some major slaps in the face. If you were to open a business you'd have a grand opening followed by a grand closing shortly thereafter with the way you look at numbers. Even that lawsuit thing was a total joke pushed forward by a shady competing manufacturer, but if you incorrectly apply bad intentions to any gray area in the situation, I suppose you can convince yourself that its something more than it is.

Window noob, what you've said in this thread is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#49 Post by WindowNoob94 »

Windows on Washington, I feel you guys are owed an apology, because I'm sure it is annoying when someone keeps questioning.
Thank you HomeSealed. You were helpful and patient. I appreciate it. You helped me eliminate the Eco lite, then I'll just need to choose between Aspect v. OKNA 500dx.
I believe businesses should reap in as much profits as they can get, I don't think they're out to get you. A business' main goal is to make money, otherwise what's the point. They're the ones taking all of the risk, so they deserve the large profits. I hear too many co workers complaining about how they deserve this and that, but don't consider their employer. I understand that business owners have long work weeks, which is why I would have no motivation to run a business. I know you need a large overhead, a company idea that I have thought about would need about $100,000 just to cover employee wages incase another company failed to pay, because you can't just not pay employees. Plus just trying to figure out the costs, in a scenario that I'm not even going to take part in did drive me nuts, since I am a penny pincher, I would be beating myself up if I found a supplier that sold me something for 30 cents more, when I could have gotten it cheaper, haha.
uncle eddie,

1. Where did I ever mentioning opening a business? Your point on me starting and failing is irrelevant.
No where did I state that my numbers were going to be accurate.
I said probably, which in plain English suggests that they're not going to be right. Nice try though.

2.) The whole cost analysis for the cost of install was about a particular business that came to my house and it was irrelevant to the overall post anyways, but we ended up spending a lot of time on it. My main point was unless you live here, you wouldn't know the cost. My estimate couldn't have been too far off, considering that I was using local numbers such as wages, employee and self employed taxes, supplies. WHAT THINGS COST HERE. Not 30 minutes down the road, not 3.5 hours across the state, not 3 states over.

3.)How are you suppose to learn if you don't question? There's no concrete understanding on how something works if you don't keep picking. To sum up everything I was arguing about (Arguing is a method to get others to share their views, not in an angry way), you can't put numbers side by side and say this one is a little better, so it's justified for the extra price hike, I needed a mention to why, which I succeeded in getting that information. I know, people don't like being questioned, why, why, why, then conflict with an answer given, but once again, it's a learning process and it works.

How is the $200 extra on OKNA justifiable?
Better structurally. More energy efficient.
How is it better structurally, when they both have the same DP rating, as mentioned, it's a good indicator.
Air tightness is why.
How does the $200 difference justify for only a .11 Air Infiltration difference?
per .01 difference = 3% more efficiency, so basically from .02 to .13 AI, the .02 is 33% more efficient
Well, I don't really need replacement windows, but I do need some kind of update, so it feels like it wouldn't be worth spending thousands on windows then.
A good solution would be to add storm windows to the exterior, but don't paint them.

You kinda remind of the 54 year old teacher that's ready to retire, when you question what they stated, then they throw you out of the classroom, instead of actually answering it. That really helped the student get a concrete understanding, huh?

I apologized because I was pushing a bit too much for information, but realised it wasn't right to keep pushing, but once again it's a learning process. Maybe I wasn't asking the right questions.

The only people who seem to be bothered are the ones who aren't adding any information. Don't be squawking if you aren't helping with a solution. I see this post as something others can learn from if they happen to go through all of the pages due to some of the more in depth answers from members.

4.) Like I said before people who have an interest will most likely be influenced by what product they sell. HomeSealed stated he doesn't have any interest beyond helping, so that's good. He offered tons of information to help, so that's a clear sign that it's true. I'm sure there's a statistic on that. He even stated upgrading ProVia at a significant savings would be worth considering.

5.) How about we stick to the facts regarding the lawsuit?

It didn't involve another manufacturer, it involved a former installer. Unless you can find any information where it states that.

1.) He took apart a window and showed that the window didn't have foam, which the reading material provided by OKNA and WindowWizards claimed it to have. 2.) People found out and sued. 3.) OKNA agreed to inspect and repair 10,000 windows.

It doesn't make them a bad company overall, but it is something to be cautious about. Just like I mentioned with ProVia, they have warranty claims that aren't being honored, another thing to be cautious about. There's too many businesses in which will take advantage to consumers.

Nice Adam Sandler movie quote, lol.

Anyways I'll keep replying as long as everyone else does. Unless someone wants to lock the post. There's a lot of informative information here that would help someone.

uncle eddie
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#50 Post by uncle eddie »

You are trying really hard here, I'll give you at least a little credit for that.
Now to address your thoughts:

If you think other contractors don't have a better idea of the wages of a window installer just because they don't live in your town, you are wrong (again) and not to mention this is insulting. Good thing we have sites like Indeed among others where one can easily find these types of things, and wouldn't you know, the wages paid there are similar to elsewhere!
Here's one for you (employee based):
Lead Window and Door Installer
XXXX company 3.5
Harrisburg, PA 17101
From $90,000 a year

Here's another (Sub based):
1099 Subcontractors Wanted - Home Improvements
XXX company, LLC 3.0
Harrisburg, PA
$150,000 - $300,000 a year
Apply with your Indeed ResumeUrgently hiring

Even Window Wurld has ads in central PA for over $25 per hr and they pay less than everyone!!!!

Here's some neat math for you because I see that you like math (mine uses factual numbers though, not those pulled out of my a$$).
Someone mentioned earlier that doubling the wage of an installer is a good way to approximate the fully loaded labor cost of that person (wage, taxes, comp, unemployment ins, maybe some health insurance, maybe some vacation, training, wages paid for non-productive time like loading and drivetime, etc, etc, etc, etc I could keep going because there are many more that you seem unable to comprehend).

Anyway, lets use the sub pay above as a baseline for a fun experiment. $150-300k. If you think that is not just for one person, you would be correct. Generally window crews are 2 guys. Lets use the median number (that means the middle one) and settle on $225k. Split that between two guys (sometimes they are equal and sometimes on makes more but that doesn't matter here) and you have $112k ea (I rounded down for your benefit). Take that $112k and divide by 52(weeks), then by 40 (hours per week), and we get $54 per hour PER PERSON! as the cost paid out by a window company to a sub installer ($108 per hour total for that 2 man crew).
Now you'll say WAIT! That sub pays for his own trucks, insurance, training, taxes, and all of those etc's that you said! Yep, no sh!t. That's why he said you can double the base wage to find a loose idea of the fully loaded labor cost that is considered in the cost of goods sold (that's a fancy business term). Lets go back to our example and see if that works: $54 per man hour to a sub crew / fully loaded employee labor, divided by 2 = $27 per hour wage. Yup. Sounds about right as an average wage for an experienced installer. Math is cool like that. I'm also being generous here for the fact that the taxes paid out are much higher on an employee than a sub. Then, even after COGS, there are other increased expenses such as HR (hiring, firing, dedicated personnel in some cases etc) those Indeed ads aren't free.

Now back to a couple other things that you said, you talked about employee installer wages, but then you said that this company (not sure if its real or fictional) is one where the owner does everything so there is little to no overhead? Uh, which is it? If there are employee installers then there are many, many more expenses. Even if we accept that flawed general premise, that's a 28% gross margin in your scenario. Industry average commission for a sales guy is 10%. Industry average for marketing is greater than 10%. 10-20% is an average other overhead cost (support staff, office supplies, computers, cell phones and tablets, vehicle repairs, legal support, software, liability insurance, licensing and permits, etc etc etc etc (many more etc's in here once again), and maybe 10% net profit to the company owner is not gouging I'm sure that you'd agree. But wait, 10% + 10%+ 10-20% = 30-40% (and no profit made yet)! How can an owner pay 40% when he only makes 28%??? Ahh, now you know why so many companies go out of business, and why so many dumba$$es that took the lower price because they thought they were smarter are up sh!t's creek at the end when nobody is around to service their cut rate install.

On the lawsuit thing, like most companies, foam in the frame is optional so showing it in the brochure does not automatically mean you get it. That wasn't the case here though, the install company did mislead people on that. And yes, it was an "expose" where a pissed ex-employee went to a competitor and that's how the whole thing was concocted. The off the record part is that the manufacturer associated with the other company nudged this forward, but that part is not verifiable. You won't find any that in a headline. Think what you want I guess, I don't really care. My point about it wasn't even to defend them but only to point out your desperate motivation to justify paying less to the point that automatically assigned bad motivations to any and every area that is open to interpretation.

Why did I state that you would fail at business? Because you are arguing with experience business people about business! Not irrelevant. Very relevant and very true, unless in the unlikely case that you actually listen to what the professionals are telling you here instead of trying to prove them wrong so you feel better about buying a cheap window.

Also, send me the info for your accountant! I need to learn about all of these amazing deductions which reduce the tax burden to next to nothing. I must be a sucker for paying out 6 figures in taxes every year, I'd love to get me some of them employee deductions!

But yeah, you got it figured out kid. Born in 94 (i assume), I'm impressed that you know who Adam Sandler is. We all have life figured out in our 20's though right? Godspeed Windownoob.
Last edited by uncle eddie on Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uncle eddie
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#51 Post by uncle eddie »


Delaware Mike
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#52 Post by Delaware Mike »

This is a little unrelated and not to beat a dead horse, but Window Wizards did a ton of installs in my area. They had a location just over the bridge from in Delaware where a lot of locals passed by for about 25-years. I've seen things from coming in behind them that would make the hair on the back of one's neck stand up. Just hacked up installs, the worst capping on planet earth, and caulking that looked like someone did it with oven mitts on. They deserved to go out of business...........

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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#53 Post by WindowNoob94 »

uncle ed,
Harrisburg is hours away from me. Just because the Window World is called Window World of Central PA doesn't mean they service all of Central PA. They're South Central PA. Move up more in the state. Of course you'd use Harrisburg, the state Capitol, which is more expensive to live in, which would cause a sizeable wage difference.

Window world is definitely not $25/hr in this area. There's an advertisement to prove it. It's $16 to 19 per hour, I understand if they're hurting for staff or if someone is just a good worker, they may go above that.
Window World wages:
window world.jpg
So finding out wages in another area isn't exactly hard, but you aren't exactly right either. Now I'm gunna on a rant how someone from out of state doesn't know what they're talking about for local wages, taxes, material costs as if I expect you to know this stuff and expect you to not question it, otherwise my face will be oh so super red.

Wages wrong, check.

Don't know PA state tax deductions, so better act like it's not there. Check.

Can't read. I never said tax deductions left the burden near to nothing. The 5,000 per employee credit covers more than half of your extra liabilities that reduces the over all wage after figuring in taxes and benefits . There's more deductions you can add to reduce your overall operation costs. Check.

I stated that the costs for employees in different areas vary. I'm not exactly wrong. I admitted my numbers are wrong overall, it was an estimation with things not thought of, so it wasn't added it. Doesn't exactly imply that I think I can or will run a business. Again can't read. Check.

A cheaper window with near similar qualities doesn't necessarily justify the extra cost, which I was trying to determine. The business offering it has been in business for 55 years, so I'm sure they ensure their pricing has everything including profits to cover everything they need.
Asking more questions lead to better answers. You don't just ask, A vs. B and be done with it. You need to ask more questions. Just because you wouldn't like someone constantly asking doesn't mean others have a problem with it. Even most guides include a price range to look out for $500-$1000. So why not take the near idenitcal, both reputable company, but cheaper window? As HomeSealed stated, he'd rather have the window that's structurally better which ge elaborated on later on. I don't believe a .03 air tight difference would cause much more degradation in the lifetime of the window. As stated before, it's not like we're building a bridge and a small measurement difference will significantly reduce it's lifespan.

If someone states a wage based on their location and it doesn't match mine where the window is going to be installed of course I'm going to mention it.

If that's the case with the OKNA lawsuit, why didn't you say so, it's believable. (The off the record, non verifiable part. No sarcasm.) Smear campaigns aren't unrealisfic between businesses. If foam is an option and the lawsuit states the windows were to be foam filled, a reasonable person would think they would have opted for the foam and didn't recieve it.
I didn't say the OKNA dealer here didn't have overhead costs, he doesn't have office staff, he does it all himself, to elaborate, the consult and measuring, I didn't say he didn't have staff at all. He has his crew for the install which was reflected in my botched estimate. Once again, you aren't reading everything.

If me trying to figure out pricing bothers you, boowhoo. I guess I better sit here and cry because you claim I said things that I didn't and got the wages wrong.

I don't which state you're from, but seriously check out if there's more tax deductions you can claim. I was a 1099 before and didn't realise that I could claim .50/mile on my car for work purposes, or all the materials I bought for work. I paid a full out 35% in taxes, until someone I worked with told me she was claiming everything and she was only liable for 20% as a 1099. I'm sure you or your accountant probably already took use of all the tax deductions, worth suggesting anyways.



I agree, who would want to do business with someone who makes their house look like trash, people take a lot of pride in their homes.
Last edited by WindowNoob94 on Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:17 am, edited 35 times in total.

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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#54 Post by WindowNoob94 »

I'm a window pro now, guys.

If you have any questions for me, I'm supplying answers!

Line em up!

uncle eddie
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Re: Deciding window brands and pricing, vinyl Central PA

#55 Post by uncle eddie »

You thought you were a window pro from the first post windownoob, lol, thats the problem.

Nice job post btw, that's a service tech position. They don't get paid as much as installers. If a service tech makes that, you are only confirming my points once again which you inadvertently do every time you post despite your best efforts.

and oh, btw, what makes you qualified to determine the impact of .03 difference in rating on quality? Nothing. You aren't and you can't.

Funny that you say all you want to do is ask questions and learn, but each and every time you follow that up with backhanded insult as if you already know the answer, which you seem to think that you do.

No matter. Its been demonstrated that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about on any level in this thread, so instead of responding to hard facts, you get bu++hurt and say that we don't know how to read, lol. All good my friend. I'm not a 54 yr old math teacher, but I don't mind taking young folks to school every so often. If you're smart, you'll learn something. I for one am not counting on it.

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