Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

Ask replacement window questions & get answers!
Message
Author
User avatar
Windows on Washington
Posts: 4707
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#16 Post by Windows on Washington »

Still wouldn't "overshoot" on the solar control in the Norther region. No reason to go as high as Low-e 366 in that case. Not needed.

Scholastique27
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:58 pm

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#17 Post by Scholastique27 »

HomeSealed wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:10 pm
TheBaker8 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:58 am Homesealed,
You mentioned that you like to see air infiltration under .03 and you also mentioned that sliders typically run leakier. Obviously, any amount of cold air a window leaks in is equivalent thermally to a poorer of U value window. That said, I was looking at some OKNA window specs and their sliders, depending on the window series, are around 0.08 - 0.09 cfm/ft2 for air infiltration. For comparison their DH and Casements are listed at 0.02 and 0.01 respectively.

In your opinion, is the larger air infiltration of the slider style window significant enough that you, generally speaking, would not recommend sliders in cold climate homes? I'm almost wonder if a slider with a good glass package is any better than a casement window with a poor glass package? Thoughts?

Good questions, unfortunately the answers aren't completely black and white.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that sliders shouldn't be used in cold climates, but I do think its fair to say that a better air infiltration rating is more desirable, therefore that should be applied to the selection of window type/operator, not just brand. I should also mention that there are a few products that actually have better ratings in their sliders than some other configs, but most sliders are leakier in my experience.

That said, as far as whether a good Simulation Regroupement de prêt slider is better than a poor casement, overall I'd say yes. The compression seal of a casement means that even poor products can get pretty good AI ratings, but that doesn't mean that they won't still have a much higher rate of failure when all is said and done. If you are talking more specifically about the glass selection, I suppose it depends on exactly what you mean by a "poor glass package". Most windows that are well designed and built don't use low solar gain or surface 4 glass in cold climates because they achieve a good u value without having to resort to that. I should also clarify that I don't think either of those options are "poor glass", they are both great technology when properly applied. The issue is when they are used in colder climates for the perception of better performance when in reality that is not the case.
Where can you get window with air infiltration under 0.03?

TheBaker8
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:43 am

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#18 Post by TheBaker8 »

WoW,
What is Low-e 366? Is that an industry standard or is that a specific window brand's name for one of their coating options?

I'm trying to learn a bit more about these Low-e coating options. If I understand correctly, the window pane surfaces are numbered from outside in. So, on a dual pane window the window surface you could touch from the outside would be surface #1. The surface you could touch from inside the house would be surface #4. Then surface #2 and #3 would be the glass surfaces in contact with the argon or krypton gas. Do I have this correct?

Looking at the ProVia Endure window brochure, they show a "High Performance Low-E" on either surface #2 or #3. They don't seem to label the outside and inside of the window so I'm unsure which is surface 2 vs 3. This is on their DLA-UV glazing option. Which surface typically gets Low-E coating? They also have a glazing option called DLA-UV-HC which shows the same Low-E coating on surface 2 or 3 and then the other pane is labeled as "Energy Advantage Hardcoat Glass". Would this hardcoat likely be on the inside surface #4?

Delaware Mike
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#19 Post by Delaware Mike »

366 is Cardinal's solar control glass package. It's well known amongst us window geeks with Cardinal being the king of the hill in glass. You are correct on all the surfaces and ProVia stuff. Most of us don't care for the surface #4 hardcoats. Lowers the CD rating too much. Some of the newer two story production "Ryan" type of homes with gas heat that run super dry humidity wise might be okay with a glass pack like that.

I'm in the South Jersey greater Philly region and solar control glass only comprises about 5% of my orders if that.

TheBaker8
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:43 am

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#20 Post by TheBaker8 »

Delaware Mike,
Thanks for the explanation. I was able to find the Cardinal Glass website and they had a very nice Technical Glass Guide that had excellent descriptions of their glass packages, including LoE-366.

Sorry if I seem to be beating a dead horse, but just a few more questions and I think I got this. You stated that many or most of you window geeks don't care for the surface #4 hardcoats because it lowers the CD rating too much. Did you mean CR for condensation resistance?

In cold climates which cardinal glass package do you prefer? I noticed in Cardinal's glass guide that they have a LoE-180 High Solar Gain Glass ideal for passive solar applications to allow the suns radiant heat in. Interestingly, for this package the coating goes on surface #3.

Please keep up the great info share, it is much appreciated!

Delaware Mike
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#21 Post by Delaware Mike »

CR is correct. I was super tired and had a typo. I don't get into passive solar specifically designed glass as no one has ever reached out to me with a house designed for passive glass winter solar heating. Oberon is the glass guru here. My only window that glazes with Cardinal is Sunrise and I've not a had a chance to tweak their glass options with any orders out of the norm default glazing or adding in 366. Sorry. The big three (Andersen, Marvin, and Pella) all glaze with Cardinal.

User avatar
HomeSealed
Posts: 2591
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, Northern IL

Re: Sunrise vs Great Lakes- Help

#22 Post by HomeSealed »

366 is often used to describe that or similar low shgc glass package. Other glass makers have similar options, Cardinal's nomenclature is just the simplest and widely known.

In colder climates, 272 or equivalent is most common. Good U value, moderate SHGC.

The high solar gain packages are becoming more popular, but much like the low solar gain option, they should be used strategically. Most times that means in homes that are specifically designed to take advantage of passive solar gain (facing on lot, window layout, landscaping, etc). You could find a window in your home that might be able to benefit, but for most folks the ROI is very, very minimal so its not worth the effort.

There are some window companies pushing the high solar gain glass as standard these days, but much like those that push the low shgc variants in cold climate, its used as more of sales gimmick to differentiate than it is an option that will provide better performance overall. Still very valid, and great technology when applied correctly.

Post Reply