Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

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Gaffnation44
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Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#1 Post by Gaffnation44 »

Am I right to not pay the rest of the tab on these Harvey windows? My supplier claims my contractors installed them incorrectly, but the expectation was 15 windows that fit within 1” for replacement style, and what we got was most of the downstairs windows showing 1-1.5” gap at top, up to 2” at worst ( see pics )...

Am I right to be holding my ground? The supplier did the measurements and claims it was an installer problem and they could’ve made these gaps work without building up frames ... (pics of frame 2” off from window, of double butted frames my contractors had to build up, of butting pieces at the top that will require quarter round...)

Thank you all - I’m being threatened with a lawsuit
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Windows on Washington
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

What kind of windows came out? Wood?

Gaffnation44
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 4:57 pm

Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#3 Post by Gaffnation44 »

The downstairs windows were all the most egregiously pigmy of the windows, and they were all semi-modern vinyls coming out.... thank you so much in advance. really feel I'm being taken to town, and taken advantage of, by this company...

Ricknez
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#4 Post by Ricknez »

"they are already making a profit"... What does that mean? its irrelevant and how do you know... If you agreed to a price through a contract, don't try and search or reasons not to pay them. They can easily raise the sill and properly install the window, what I see is far from terrible on the installers part.

Gaffnation44
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#5 Post by Gaffnation44 »

Well it's immaterial honestly (no pun intended) - I pretty much agree. I'm just calling out that they're threatening me legally, completely refuting my story, when they're already in the green or close to it.... the window invoice was left here when the windows were dropped off... ugly for them... something I'm not supposed to see and necessarily judge - sure/whatever... but I saw it, so I'm relating it... the contract was: I agreed to pay $9500 (an insane unstinalled price, but I agreed) for 15 uninstalled Harvey Classics... *that fit*... so I'm trying to determine if my contractors are right - these 1"-2" off were just a bit too much to work with replacement style, and it cost me a lot of frame rebuild. Yes. ^that's all that matters at hand really (PS - you touch on a great point actually... as a pissed customer who saw the invoice, I referenced it with them too... I have a feeling they think I'm swindling them because I didn't like the price... but I don't have many more pics than I'm sharing... it's kind of all I got to go on...)

Ricknez
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#6 Post by Ricknez »

Their install seems to be within the realm of acceptability. They will win any legal dispute.

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toddinmn
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#7 Post by toddinmn »

Typically you want to order the windows to fit So the original casing can fit back on with without running wide monster trim or big Sheetrock patches. How does look on the outside? The height looks pretty short and they have head expanders which should have not been needed. It’s hard to get a complete grasp since we don’t know what was said/written or what’s going on the outside. To me from what I see they are unacceptably short. I think may be on the hook since they measured them unless they have a disclaimer of some sort written in. I don’t understand there logic on how they were installed wrong and would ask for clarification. Are you wanting new windows or a reduction in price? I would not be afraid of lawsuit and Would withhold money to an agreement is made. I think it would have better if the windows weren’t installed It stopped at the first one. I thinks it’s safe to say they have a bit of wiggle room since what you paid is closer to installed price vs a retail price.

Gaffnation44
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#8 Post by Gaffnation44 »

Yeah - they ended up caving today and offering me a lower price. So, in case this thread helps anyone. What I had in terms of pics, just the few as I was able to snap before/after the install job, was enough to semi-prove that there were some unacceptable gaps that they've essentially owned up to now.

You have to stick to your guns though. Jeez... My takeaway is you as a consumer, in perhaps this somewhat rare case (someone else installing windows somebody else measured), will really be pushed against the wall to prove every last bit, pay every last bit, be threatened with liens & lawsuits, etc etc.

I had to fight like a bastard for weeks to get them to knock off a grand... I did not want to go the route of lawsuits and pro-rated compensatory damages and yadda yadda, too much pain ... they got their loot .. I got outta Dodge somewhat less bruised..

Cheers and thank you all for the advice. Had they not backed down today, I would've stuck to my guns... In PA, contractors have up to 6 months to file the lien... they could've slow played me for months, so I immediately filed online reviews as well (which may've helped).. cheers

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toddinmn
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#9 Post by toddinmn »

Since they only took off a grand and overcharged you (imo) I would be shocked if they didn’t bat an eye.

Gaffnation44
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#10 Post by Gaffnation44 »

That's right, this is standard practice for them, and my blood pressure suffered for weeks... Is what it is. It makes sense 100% now why so many companies tether measure - to sourcing - to - install. Too much liability in between.

uncle eddie
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#11 Post by uncle eddie »

I'm shocked by some of the advice given here.
1. None of us know any details of the size of the windows that came out or the circumstances to do so
2. None of us know the language in your contract regarding measurements
3. We see no finished product pictures from interior or exterior.

This could very well be the result of how your home is built or how the old windows were installed, or it could be a total hack job. No way for us to know. I'll say this, going with a contractor that has the supplier measure the windows (or maybe you contracted them separately?) was fatal mistake numero uno by you, you seem to acknowledge this. Based on that it probably is a hack job and you probably got what you paid for as well. I'm sure it was less than professional organizations that take full responsibility and ownership of everything from the time of sale through install completion and after.

Maybe you got a fair result for windows that were a little too small
Or
Maybe you should have gotten new windows or more money off because they messed up badly
Or
Maybe you just extorted $1000 from these guys even though the windows were sized and installed in a reasonable way based on circumstances that we are all unaware of

Again, no way to know, so there is also no way to say lesson learned for yourself or anyone else.

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toddinmn
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#12 Post by toddinmn »

Even though we don’t Know all the details there are some things that I’d say are say safe to presume.
# 1 , this person hired someone who is a “ professional” to come out and supply and order windows. There was a communication breakdown on how the windows would fit and. I can honestly say U have not had this problem once.
#2. This person clearly got overcharged to the point of robbery. We both know what retail cost and actual cost are . If. I could sell windows at that price. With no liability or knocking off a small percentage. I would never install another window again.
The language in the contract should be made clear by the contractor and the homeowner should have a clear understanding what to expect. The height difference here is way off and when you conspire the fact there are head expander It is even more so. I might agree more with dicknez , but it is safe to say the window supplier made a killing on this even with the modest 1 k discount.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#13 Post by HomeSealed »

Looks to me like perhaps the supplier came and measured the old windows as pockets and the installer had other ideas? ... You are spot on in saying this is why professionals recommend against splitting up accountability.
The windows seem to be undersized for the openings that they are in, but without seeing what was there before and what it looks like after completion its hard to say for sure. I'll say this, even if the windows are sourced separately from the install (which I strongly recommend against), the installing party should ALWAYS provide the measurements or at bare minimum sign off on them.

As far as profit goes, did you get 15 individual double hungs? ... or are there some twin units or other details about the order for $9500 product only? Could be high, be there are variables that could change that, not to mention that the overhead costs of a company will determine just how much "profit" is there. Probably a fantastic margin for a one man company with little overhead, but nothing special to larger company with a full workforce and all of the expenses that come with it.

Not enough detail here to crucify a contractor here in an open forum IMO.

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toddinmn
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#14 Post by toddinmn »

This is presumptive criticism with educated guesses. There appears to be clear faults on each side. We got a home owner playing the general, a window supplier taking the measurements and a builder doing the installation. I have seen these type of scenarios work out great and some with similar results. Glad to see a happy ending .

Gaffnation44
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Re: Windows 1-2” off sitting in existing frames!!

#15 Post by Gaffnation44 »

All feedback thus fair has been fair, and some really good perspectives here.

RE: Yes to 15 Harvey Double Hung Vinyls priced at $9500 without install or nuances... just windows... that's what they wanted... but again.. I said OK initially (before seeing builder install challenges).. As someone else noted correctly above - they are a company with a small workforce (maybe 7-10 if I had to guess). Their margin may necessarily larger than a lot of other thinner shops/crews (I'm also in a high profile zipcode unfortunately, and so I think a lot of others around here don't bat an eye at prices). but I'd say that price was absolutely near the top of the price curve, pretty brutal. is what it is, and should never have been mentioned by me as a basis for complaint, other than venting.

RE: Someone said this all could've made sense for the house/windows/yadda yadda, and I could essentially be extorting them unfairly - I have to disagree here dude. no funny business, the one pic you all see of a window 1.75" off sitting within existing frame seems a bit ridiculous to be paying TOP TIER PRICE. Most seemed to agree here with that w/ that take. From web research, most seem to say we should be within 1" spec on replacement windows. These were modern vinyls coming out, and modern vinyls going in, for like 13 out of 15 windows... I watched YouTube for days trying to find replacement windows where the new window was clearly more than ".5 off.... couldn't... they all looked almost identical or within ".25 off initial spec

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