Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

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bbsmitz
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Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#1 Post by bbsmitz »

Hi Everyone,

We're under contract for a condo, and will be replacing 9 double-hung, 12-light grille, windows. I've reached out to the two installers that the condo association has listed on their window replacement document, and gotten two quotes so far.

1) KHPP genesis. $4875.
2) MI (not sure the model). $4351.

The KHPP has argon between the panes, the MI doesn't, although that option is available for an additional $630. My understanding is that this doesn't make a huge difference.

After doing some research on the two makes, KHPP (also known as Kensington I think?) seems to have a somewhat checkered company history, but the consensus on the windows seems they're solid (if this is wrong, please let me know!). MI seems to be thoroughly mediocre, so I'm leaning against going that direction. However, I'd like to maybe explore some more options before going with the Genesis. Can folks recommend a few windows that are in the same tier (or perhaps one above) the KHPP genesis? Is it worth considering the KHPP ascent as well? This isn't going to be our forever home; maybe 5 years or so is the current plan. So we'd like a decent window, but it doesn't need to be spectacular. Thanks for reading!

Cheers,

-bbsmitz

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toddinmn
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#2 Post by toddinmn »

MI is out, it is what contractors use here to maximize profit and keep down. Kensington has a good name from others comments but. I am not familiar with them nor do I know there product lines. With there price being fairly close to MI, I am a little skeptical. Knowing tour location would help if you are looking for advice on other brands in your area.

Delaware Mike
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#3 Post by Delaware Mike »

Those series sound like private labels from Kensington to me, thus referencing them to their main series would be a little harder? I don't like MI. Lower grade contractor stuff from a company that made their bones on pure new construction junk. Kensington's middle and upper series are quite nice.

bbsmitz
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#4 Post by bbsmitz »

Hi Guys,

Cheers for the responses.

1) We're in the DC area, so any suggestions on brands in this region doing a decent vinyl window would be appreciated.
2) I'm still not sure that KHPP and Kensington are the same. I'm just guessing that based on this post and this post. But I'm still not 100% sure. Doing some more research, the heat mirror concept in the KHPP ascent seems to have durability issues, but most of what I've seen about the genesis so far is reasonably positive.
3) Thanks for the MI feedback; it dovetails with what I've read.

masterext
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#5 Post by masterext »

KHPP
Kensington high performance products. They make a good window.

bbsmitz
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#6 Post by bbsmitz »

masterext wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:49 am KHPP
Kensington high performance products. They make a good window.
Thanks. Any idea why KHPP and Kensington seem to have different website? khpp.us for KHPP and kensingtonhpp.com. A site says that Kensington HPP is made in Vandegrift PA, which is the same place KHPP's website places itself, but it seems they've taken pains to separate the two lines.

Also, still open to any suggestions for other manufacturers available in the DC region!

-bbsmitz

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HomeSealed
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#7 Post by HomeSealed »

+1 to the other feedback.
I'd toss MI.
KHPP is Kensington as the others have stated. Decently built window with good performance. The drawbacks as you've noted are the checkered company history, and I'd stay away from the Heat Mirror option (maybe they call it a different name). That's a suspended film in the glass that gives "triple pane performance in a double pane window". Its a cool concept but one that has yet to stand the test of time in terms of reliability, its been around for many years and used but a variety of manufacturers.
Why the two websites? Not sure. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that they changed ownership again last night.

As far as other products, the Okna lines and Softlite Elements/LS are other top performers that should be available in your area. As a matter of fact, one of the best in the business Windows on Washington should serve your area, I'd highly recommend giving them a call.

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toddinmn
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#8 Post by toddinmn »

WOW has a great product and legendary reputation . Gotta second that recommendation. Usually when you get companies offering rebranded products to separate themselves from others is a mostly marketing, even though they are selling the same product with upgrades that can be had by others as add ons. This is neither good or bad IMO but sometimes deceptive depending how it’s presented and priced.

bbsmitz
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#9 Post by bbsmitz »

Thanks to all for your thoughts so far. I reached out to Windows on Washington and got quotes. ~9.9K for the Okna 800 and 9.1k for the Okna 500 series. Honestly, it just feels like too much. I get that it's a solid product but I could literally replace my windows again 10 years from now and come out about even. I need to talk to the KHPP guys a bit more, but I'm heavily leaning that direction.

Based on the conversation with the rep I did have a few questions that I wanted to run by you guys.

1) How important is it to get things like air leakage and condensation resistance spec in writing? If important, what would be suitable values?
2) How much does the spacer type really matter?
3) Regarding low-E coatings, he discussed a) getting >10 layers, and b) avoiding the coating on the 4th surface (on the home side of the window) due to condensation and durability concerns. Are these major considerations? I used a dew-point calculator, and for a home at 70 degrees and 50% RH (relatively high), the window would have to be at 50 degrees for condensation to take place. This seems unlikely. I can see his point about the durability I guess.

Anyways, thanks again all for your input so far!

Cheers,

-bbsmitz

Delaware Mike
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#10 Post by Delaware Mike »

The bigger question is how are other outfits coming in with their pricing so low? My guess is that they're sending out Larry, Moe, and Curley. All our windows and materials are costing us dealers so much more than a few years ago and my pay to installers has went up 25%. Gas and tolls are up, dump fees are up, equipment cost more.

It is good to get specs in writing. I do prefer OKNA's black Duralite spacer over tin plated steel intercept (Kennsington) or MI's gray spacer. I won't do interior hard coat low-e coatings either. Even if you don't get condensation build up on the glass it's strange when trying to clean the glass.

bbsmitz
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#11 Post by bbsmitz »

Delaware Mike wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:38 am The bigger question is how are other outfits coming in with their pricing so low? My guess is that they're sending out Larry, Moe, and Curley. All our windows and materials are costing us dealers so much more than a few years ago and my pay to installers has went up 25%. Gas and tolls are up, dump fees are up, equipment cost more.
Thanks. From my reading a ~500-600 price point for Viny installed seemed reasonable, so the other estimates were in line with what I was expecting. But perhaps such pricing is old hat now?

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toddinmn
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#12 Post by toddinmn »

That would have been on the low side for a quality window 5 years ago.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Some windows comparable to KHPP Genesis?

#13 Post by HomeSealed »

Delaware Mike wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:38 am The bigger question is how are other outfits coming in with their pricing so low? My guess is that they're sending out Larry, Moe, and Curley.
Exactly. With zero regard to who your quotes are from or where you are located, $500-$600 is the outlier and the red flag, $1000 give or take is right within the normal range these days. I suspect that if you got another quote or two from highly reputable companies with top performing products and a 10+ year history, they would look closer to the latter than the former.
There is something to be said for a company that would choose to offer a product that changes ownership so frequently and uses technology known to fail.

Lastly, another strong vote against surface 4 low e unless you are in a very moderate or warm climate. If you see temperatures in the 20's, 30's and occasionally colder, you are very likely to see condensation with that package... Keeping blinds closed, furniture in front of the window, etc all play a role as well. This goes for any window, but it's exacerbated when the condensation resistance rating has been gutted for what often is no other reason than so the sales person can trick you.

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