Replacement Windows in Connecticut

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toddinmn
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#16 Post by toddinmn »

If I was to measure a Larson storm , which I did. The width from the window frame to the edge where the screen starts , which is the widest part it is 2 1/2 “ in the lower sash the upper sash To edge of glass is Is even narrower at 2 1/8 “ . Not many vinyl window come on under 3” . The math will be based upon the size of the window, the brand and line of the vinyl window, and also the brand. and line of the storm window. There are other factors at play as well,
I think each side could the other what they want . IMO there just many if not more scammers. On the insert side because they can not do full frame inserts. In my case I do not offer full framed installs Since for personal reasons . I see contractors pushing inserts due to ease of installation and an express install . Many contractors that use subs have limited. Subs that can do both types. The best case scenario is a contractor such as the Nerd that often does it both ways , can explain the differences and let the homeowner decide.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#17 Post by TheWindowNerd »

No artistic interpretation.
Clearly not asbestos. What is the additional RRP protocol for insert vs full tear?

You were correct, I was off in the visible glass loss that applies to the OPs DH.
It is actually 1.36 sq ft. based on a traditional wood framed window such as an AW NL 3046 VG= 10.833 sq ft
A vinyl insert with a 3.25" frame to glass would equal 9.46 ( or less, I did not deduct the CMR form the visible glass).

Unlike most salesman, I save my artistry for the canvas and oil paints.

theWindowNerd

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#18 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Oops forgot the numbers for full farme:
Traditional wood full frame tear out of 3046
then full frame vinyl unit 37" x 57" equals net gain of a little more than 1 sq ft VG.

For my crews the labor difference is two hours per window plus the my cost to purchase interior casing and stool.

theWindowNerd

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HomeSealed
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#19 Post by HomeSealed »

toddinmn wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:59 pm If I was to measure a Larson storm , which I did. The width from the window frame to the edge where the screen starts , which is the widest part it is 2 1/2 “ in the lower sash the upper sash To edge of glass is Is even narrower at 2 1/8 “ . Not many vinyl window come on under 3” . The math will be based upon the size of the window, the brand and line of the vinyl window, and also the brand. and line of the storm window. There are other factors at play as well,
I think each side could the other what they want . IMO there just many if not more scammers. On the insert side because they can not do full frame inserts. In my case I do not offer full framed installs Since for personal reasons . I see contractors pushing inserts due to ease of installation and an express install . Many contractors that use subs have limited. Subs that can do both types. The best case scenario is a contractor such as the Nerd that often does it both ways , can explain the differences and let the homeowner decide.
I don't disagree with most of that Todd, although unless someone is pushing a pocket window in an instance where it clearly should not be used (leaking or rotted window, or a few other reasons) I'm not sure how that could be considered a "scammer"?
It also may vary by market, but I don't know of any reputable companies in my area that only offer pockets these days, whereas I do know of some that only offer full frames and for the reasons mentioned.

I also agree on the math. Rather than speak in generalities, we have specifics in this case in terms of product selection to comment on.

evan_ct
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#20 Post by evan_ct »

Thank you all for your feedback and info, this has been really helpful.

New Construction vs Replacement

Regarding the new construction option, I'm personally not worried that my friend is scamming me or anything; he's done other great work for me and the cost has been reasonable. I'm more concerned about limiting my potential window selection to only those that come in new construction.

FYI - my current windows say "Norco" on them. My friend says that the the windows are not made for replacement and that they need to be new construction (which is the same thing he had to do on his house apparently) and he would rather do replacement if he could. I'm sure this could still be technically incorrect, but it's also possible he can see something by looking up close in person, or just may be playing it safe because he's unfamiliar with the way these were initially installed.

I also went to a local Okna supplier showroom and showed the guy the same pictures I uploaded here. He took a quick look and said replacement should work and new construction isn't necessary. He gave me ballpark "per window installed" estimates where a replacement window was about $300 per window (in addition to window cost) and a new construction would be another $250-300 per window on top. I still have not had anyone else come out to look in person.

Windows

As for the windows, I'm really trying to find something that has better sound reduction. It looks like the only option with Okna is laminated glass which would be about $500+ per window and have worse thermal ratings than the triple pane which are cheaper. According to NFRC data, Okna uses 2mm and 3mm glass normally, with the laminated at 7mm. I'm checking to see if they can do a 2mm + 3mm option for dissimilar glass, but I'm not hopeful.

I want to try Sunrise as they offer the NRG option which is tested and proven to reduce noise. The closest Sunrise dealer to me doesn't sell them anymore but I found a place about an hour away that is going to get back to me with some details. When I called Sunrise they made me leave a message with my info and I have no idea when they'll get back to me.

Any suggestions for getting a high quality Sunrise window? I think I've read here that Restorations is a good model, but I don't know the differences and there doesn't seem to be any literature on the website. I would like something that is both energy efficient and has good sound reduction. Triple pane with NRG would be even better so I have a chance at qualifying for the CT rebate if they renew it next year.

Thanks again!

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HomeSealed
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#21 Post by HomeSealed »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:20 pm No artistic interpretation.
Clearly not asbestos. What is the additional RRP protocol for insert vs full tear?
I didn't disagree on the fact that it is not likely asbestos.
As far as RRP I didn't reference that, however we do use added procedures for full tear outs given the necessity (at least for us) of working from the interior during disassembly/demo.
TheWindowNerd wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:20 pmYou were correct, I was off in the visible glass loss that applies to the OPs DH.
It is actually 1.36 sq ft. based on a traditional wood framed window such as an AW NL 3046 VG= 10.833 sq ft
A vinyl insert with a 3.25" frame to glass would equal 9.46 ( or less, I did not deduct the CMR form the visible glass).
Unlike most salesman, I save my artistry for the canvas and oil paints.
theWindowNerd
Why do you specify "I was off in the visible glass loss that applies to the OPs DH", but then provide measurements for an AW NL window? I specifically stated that the presence of a storm window that further reduces visible glass above and beyond the "frame to glass" area measurement is often overlooked in this type of discussion.... and without regard to what your motivation may or may not be, that is often done for less than ethical reasons.

If you take an "assumed" general storm window measurement of 2.5" (I agree with Todd on that) from frame to viewable area, vs the window that the OP is considering, (3" for half of the height and 3.25" for the other), you get a difference of around .7 sq ft. Ironically now about half of what you are now quoting. I also left out the CMR as I would think that we can agree that it will likely be a similar measurement (between the replacement and original window) more often than not.

At the end of the day, are there some cases where the homeowner may lose over 1 sq ft of viewable area by going with pockets? Sure. I've also seen cases where they've had a net gain. I agree with Todd's assessment that its very hard to say a number with certainty, as the dimensions of what is coming out along with what is going in can vary substantially. I simply take issue with the over generalized use of the 1sq ft number, but even more so to the characterization that "The bulk of companies prefer this, because it is to their benefit and they seldom have the next level skill set of installers." The company in my area that pushes full frames harder than anyone ironically has the least skilled and experienced installers, they simply use a product and process that is pretty "modular". Many full frame installs don't even include brake metal, so I'm not sure that the "next level installer" descriptor really applies either, at least not all of the time. One could also argue whether its more "unethical" to do something for a higher price/commission/profit vs doing it because of a limited skill set, but I digress.

Lastly as far as cost, is it safe to assume that price (yours) is not including stained/painted/ finished woodwork? If not, is it fair or accurate to compare a fully finished final product to one that still has a fairly hefty expense left remaining? If $400 per window covers the added labor, materials, including finished interior woodwork I'm jealous. I'd be out of business quickly if I were in the same price range... or perhaps you are doing that finishing work yourself when you aren't busy with the oil paints and canvas.

evan_ct
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#22 Post by evan_ct »

Talked to my "local" Sunrise dealer and he said he's only familiar with Sunrise Essential, which I believe I've read is not great. He also said he's not really familiar with how NRG works or how it's physically incorporated with the window (I had to explain how it's dissimilar glass). So far not looking great here, but he's going to talk to his rep about my questions regarding NRG and lines other than Essential and get back to me.

I'm curious if NRG can be combined with triple pane glass and/or other thermal improvements to get great U-value and STC/OITC ratings, or if NRG is a standalone package where you may trade off for energy performance.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#23 Post by HomeSealed »

evan_ct wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:34 pm Thank you all for your feedback and info, this has been really helpful.

New Construction vs Replacement

Regarding the new construction option, I'm personally not worried that my friend is scamming me or anything; he's done other great work for me and the cost has been reasonable. I'm more concerned about limiting my potential window selection to only those that come in new construction.

FYI - my current windows say "Norco" on them. My friend says that the the windows are not made for replacement and that they need to be new construction (which is the same thing he had to do on his house apparently) and he would rather do replacement if he could. I'm sure this could still be technically incorrect, but it's also possible he can see something by looking up close in person, or just may be playing it safe because he's unfamiliar with the way these were initially installed.

I also went to a local Okna supplier showroom and showed the guy the same pictures I uploaded here. He took a quick look and said replacement should work and new construction isn't necessary. He gave me ballpark "per window installed" estimates where a replacement window was about $300 per window (in addition to window cost) and a new construction would be another $250-300 per window on top. I still have not had anyone else come out to look in person.
This is the last thing I'll say about this as there is no need to belabor it much further, but if your contractor friend is literally the only person telling you that these need to be new construction, that is a problem.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that these can be installed as pockets.
I can also tell you why your contractor friend thinks that they can't, and that is because they don't have interior stops that are easily removable. This is a common misconception for a DIY-type, or even a trades-person that simply doesn't install many windows. Your interior stops extend behind the casing. I've installed many hundreds of windows of this type, the exterior stops simply need to be cut off, which incidentally is window installation 101 for professionals anyway. It is great that your friend has done other quality work for you, however just because someone does a good job installing tile or unclogging your toilet, it doesn't mean that they are good at installing windows.
Windows
evan_ct wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:34 pmAs for the windows, I'm really trying to find something that has better sound reduction. It looks like the only option with Okna is laminated glass which would be about $500+ per window and have worse thermal ratings than the triple pane which are cheaper. According to NFRC data, Okna uses 2mm and 3mm glass normally, with the laminated at 7mm. I'm checking to see if they can do a 2mm + 3mm option for dissimilar glass, but I'm not hopeful.

I want to try Sunrise as they offer the NRG option which is tested and proven to reduce noise. The closest Sunrise dealer to me doesn't sell them anymore but I found a place about an hour away that is going to get back to me with some details. When I called Sunrise they made me leave a message with my info and I have no idea when they'll get back to me.

Any suggestions for getting a high quality Sunrise window? I think I've read here that Restorations is a good model, but I don't know the differences and there doesn't seem to be any literature on the website. I would like something that is both energy efficient and has good sound reduction. Triple pane with NRG would be even better so I have a chance at qualifying for the CT rebate if they renew it next year.

Thanks again!
The Restorations is the top window model from Sunrise and is a very good window. The casement is a great window IMO, the double hung is good. Your Okna option will outperform it in every way thermally and structurally, however if they offer a unique glass package for sound mitigation that is certainly something that you have to consider.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#24 Post by TheWindowNerd »

If your window does not have a removable stop. You can either cut off the exterior stop( most guys just hack them off with a chisel) or you can deduct 1/2" from the sash opening size( the ID of the jamb) insert them left then pull in and center to the interior stops.

Sunrise is having more problems than most right now.

evan_ct
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#25 Post by evan_ct »

HomeSealed wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:07 pm I can tell you with 100% certainty that these can be installed as pockets.
I can also tell you why your contractor friend thinks that they can't, and that is because they don't have interior stops that are easily removable. This is a common misconception for a DIY-type, or even a trades-person that simply doesn't install many windows. Your interior stops extend behind the casing. I've installed many hundreds of windows of this type, the exterior stops simply need to be cut off, which incidentally is window installation 101 for professionals anyway.
Thank you for explaining this clearly and simply, this makes a lot more sense now and likely explains his position.

I received a quote on a Sunrise "Sunrise" window - dual pane with NRG (U-value 0.25, SHGC 0.28) = $635/window (window only). This has an STC of 33 and OITC of 28. This seems high since base cost of the window was about $550 with the NRG option only adding $35 and the improved thermal glass adding $50.

I also reached out to another supplier for a quote on Kolbe Forgent which have a dissimilar glass option that has an STC of 36, OITC 29. I'm very impressed with their sound test data by the way (link here). Forgent appears to be some kind of vinyl/composite material. Anyone have experience with them? They seem to be a higher end brand so I'm kind of expecting something similar to the Sunrise or higher.

I'm waiting for official quotes on Okna 600 with laminated glass. I'm thinking this is my best option for balancing cost and performance (both thermal and sound). Okna doesn't test for STC/OITC, but laminated glass is basically guaranteed to improve sound performance. According to NFRC data I can get laminated glass with a HeatSeal/foam package that gets me to U-value of 0.26 and SHGC 0.29 (equivalent 800 series is U-value 0.27 and SHGC 0.28). I can add "SunSeal" to lower SHGC but it also reduces visible transmittance.

If the 600 or 800 are in the ~$500 range each for laminated I will likely go that way. I only need them in 5 windows that are going in bedrooms. The other windows I can go with a more typical double or triple to save money and even improve energy performance.

On a related note, I've scoured various windows' STC/OITC test results and the data does seem to validate that the best way to reduce sound is to use dissimilar glass thicknesses (other than laminating). I asked my Okna dealer if this is an option and am waiting for a response, but since they don't appear to offer it I'm not holding out hope.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#26 Post by Windows on Washington »

Okna rep won't have a whole bunch of data on STC as the window is not tested for that. That being said, laminating glass does, effectively, create dissimilar glass thicknesses and get you back to the end result. While Okna does not have the standard offset glazing option, the reality is that Laminated, especially on the outer lite, does work quite well.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#27 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Eric,
Does Okna change the seal failure warranty on units with laminated glass?

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#28 Post by Windows on Washington »

Wayne...not to my knowledge. Have never had to test that concept so far, thankfully, but I think it is still lifetime.

evan_ct
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#29 Post by evan_ct »

Their warranty doesn't appear to state any exclusions or changes for laminated glass.

On the topic of warranties, I'm also interested in getting a sliding patio door replaced. I'm thinking of getting blinds in the glass, but every manufacturer's warranty that I've found states that adding the blinds limits the warranty to 10 years. Are there any manufacturer's out there that have a better warranty for doors with blinds?

Anyone have issues with blinds breaking or the glass failing after 10 years? I don't want to end up with a door where the blinds are stuck just after the warranty period is up. Since I plan to be in this house for 20+ years, a lifetime vs 10 year warranty feels like a big difference. On the other hand, there's no guarantee any window/door company will still be in business in 20+ years and/or have the same or comparable product available as a replacement.

If the warranties are equal then I will likely end up with an Okna Elegante. I saw it in a showroom last week and it looks/feels very nice - at least as good if not better than the Andersen 200 (and cheaper too!).

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Replacement Windows in Connecticut

#30 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Everybody I know of is ten years with blinds between the glass.

The Elegante is much better door than the AW200.

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