just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

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Randy
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#16 Post by Randy »

Seems like most contractors want to jump the sheetrock and sill rather than cutting them back. As you said, it’s easier on them. However, it’s not in the homeowner’s best interest at all. New construction windows are not difficult to remove, if you know what you’re doing. The fact that he thinks they are just means that he would be in over his head on the job.

NT’s Presidential is a fine choice for a mid-grade vinyl window, if that’s what you’re wanting. I don’t think the thicker laminated glass, nor the foam insulation are worth upgrading to.

dallasite2
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#17 Post by dallasite2 »

does anyone know anything about Synergy windows out of sherman texas or Dreamline windows? One installer I contacted said he is having a hard time with NT window right now; getting response and it could take a few months to get the windows. he mentioned these other two windows saying syergy has very good laminated glass option and they are in stock.

uncle eddie
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#18 Post by uncle eddie »

dallasite2 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:54 am the one guy said if the new window sticks out too much they would just install the windows OVER the existing window sill and drywall instead of cutting back the drywall if needed "Too much work" he says. that was a red flag to me, am I wrong? Seems like they want to do what is fast and convenient for THEM.
This is not a red flag, its pretty common. Can the drywall be cut back to can you a little more glass, sure. If you want to pay for the extra labor. Most people don't want to. If that is really important to you then you can obviously insist on it, but the other way(downsize) is pretty standard and not wrong, even if it is less work. I don't agree with the premise that anything but the highest level, most exhaustive installation option is somehow a red flag or a disservice to the homeowner. Only is if the contractor says he's doing a "full frame" install and trying to compare it to the guy doing a nail fin with cutback and pricing it the same way.

Delaware Mike
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#19 Post by Delaware Mike »

Removing flanged vinyl with vinyl siding by means of a downsized slip has quite a few downsides. One typically loses quite a bit of jamb pocket and most folks have larger blind brackets up in head cavity. This will push the entire blind system out further. A insert window set atop the wood stools looks terrible and there is a lot of vinyl sill face showing. The installers are adding capping and sealant to system that wasn't designed to have them, thus there will be caulking to get dirty and capping to fade. This method heavily relies upon spray foam, drip caps, caulking, and the installers skillset to take the place of a tape flashed flange install.

uncle eddie
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#20 Post by uncle eddie »

Sounds like you just described a replacement window installation there Mike. I don't think anyone would argue that a typical pocket has more downsides than a full frame removal, but that doesn't make it invalid or a disservice. That's all I'm saying. Saving 30% and getting your 12 windows installed in a day is often chosen over the extra $3-4k and added few days of mess for little better install and more glass. Do you do replacements, or only full frames?

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toddinmn
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#21 Post by toddinmn »

I would not entertain doing a nail fin Install if it involves unzipping siding at this point anymore. Kudos to those that do them since it is still the best way .

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HomeSealed
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#22 Post by HomeSealed »

I think all recognized install types (for the most part) have their place with some pros and cons. I do try to avoid anything that has no flashing and will inevitably leak once the caulk fails.
Certainly new construction style with a nail fin will be the optimum for most installs, but ROI is a real consideration for most. We don't unzip siding, we cut it back and add trim boards, and we insist on new interior wood work as well (although that wouldn't apply with drywall returns)... MAJOR price difference... I don't disagree with the concept of dropping siding btw, I've just ran into too many problems doing it over the years.

dallasite2
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#23 Post by dallasite2 »

HomeSealed wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:43 pm I think all recognized install types (for the most part) have their place with some pros and cons. I do try to avoid anything that has no flashing and will inevitably leak once the caulk fails.
Certainly new construction style with a nail fin will be the optimum for most installs, but ROI is a real consideration for most. We don't unzip siding, we cut it back and add trim boards, and we insist on new interior wood work as well (although that wouldn't apply with drywall returns)... MAJOR price difference... I don't disagree with the concept of dropping siding btw, I've just ran into too many problems doing it over the years.
during this process of getting multiple estimates from multiple companies and installers, I am hearing all different ways each installer does it. For the windows I have on the back of my house (which are all hardieboard siding, not brick) most of them so far would remove the trim around the window THEN remove the window, then replace the trim after the new window is installed. Because there is no room to push back the thicker frame of the new window into the window opening without removing and repositioning all blinds (which would stick out inside the house), most agaree to add some more trim on the outside, like a quarter round or something like that.

I had one installer out that said he would not even remove the trim. he would just use a saws-all to cut out the window and not remove the trim since there will be no fin on the replacment window. What do the professionals say about removing the windows this way, cutting it out with a saws-all?

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HomeSealed
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#24 Post by HomeSealed »

I prefer a multi-tool over a saws-all in most applications, but in terms of the concept, that is another "industry accepted" method of install. To me its the last desirable however as you are truly depending on caulking to keep the window leak free.

Install types ranked by level of protection:
1) Full frame with nail fin
2) Down size, add exterior trim (most common)
3) "Express", maintain original size, install without nail fin.

I like option 2 over option 3 even though neither has a nail fin due to access to ensure proper foam application, and typically you can tie the new aluminum trim into existing head flashing.

I'm a little concerned about the contractors that seem to be claiming to offer option 1), but then talking about setting the window against the existing sheetrock return and building out the ext trim. If a nail fin is being used, they would need to build out the sheathing directly around the RO as well to push the window out, and that poses other issues. The correct way to do that install is to cut back the drywall return if the new window has a deeper jamb than the one coming out. It sounds more likely to me that those guys are probably going to do option 3.

dallasite2
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#25 Post by dallasite2 »

HomeSealed wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:17 pm I prefer a multi-tool over a saws-all in most applications, but in terms of the concept, that is another "industry accepted" method of install. To me its the last desirable however as you are truly depending on caulking to keep the window leak free.

Install types ranked by level of protection:
1) Full frame with nail fin
2) Down size, add exterior trim (most common)
3) "Express", maintain original size, install without nail fin.

I like option 2 over option 3 even though neither has a nail fin due to access to ensure proper foam application, and typically you can tie the new aluminum trim into existing head flashing.

I'm a little concerned about the contractors that seem to be claiming to offer option 1), but then talking about setting the window against the existing sheetrock return and building out the ext trim. If a nail fin is being used, they would need to build out the sheathing directly around the RO as well to push the window out, and that poses other issues. The correct way to do that install is to cut back the drywall return if the new window has a deeper jamb than the one coming out. It sounds more likely to me that those guys are probably going to do option 3.
Very interesting, what do you mean by downsize? That is an excellent point and something I did not consider when you mentioned about if the window had nail fins and you did not cut back the drywall then you would have to adjust the rough opening which causes other problems. However if all the windows are being ordered without nail fins and the window ends up sticking out a little bit farther, is that way something I should be concerned of? Do you think it is a bad idea to not cut back the drywall and have it protrude a little bit farther out and just add trim to make it look good? I have seven windows that are placed in a wood wall basically Hardie board, not brick. All those windows have blinds and the blinds are pretty much butted up right against the existing window frame with just a hair to spare. If I had all the blinds removed and the drywall cut back to put the new window in place, then the blinds will end up sticking out farther into the home when I put them back up, unless of course I end up buying brand new blinds that are not so thick and that's a whole another cost. I have wondered if it's going to end up looking tacky to have the window stick out a little bit more on the outside and add extra trim to try and make it blend in. I'm kind of stuck on the best way to proceed. If the best way to proceed is to just have all the drywall cut back so the window sits inside the opening properly then I should just do that and accept the fact that I will have to have all the blinds replaced at some point. What you said really has made me look at this differently and understand what is going on when some people just want to take the express route as you say. Thank you.

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HomeSealed
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#26 Post by HomeSealed »

Its hard to say with certainty not seeing things in person, but the short answer is that yes, setting the window to project to the exterior can cause issues and look tacky-- especially if no nail fin is used. That's probably the worst possible practice in this situation IMO.

The two ways to bring the window inward are to trim back the drywall as mentioned, or shrink the width and height by 3/4" on each side so it slides into the drywall return. That is a pretty common method. The blinds would need to be moved in either way, how much depends on the jamb depth difference between the current and new windows.

If you were going to go through the trouble to have the drywall returns cut back and blinds moved, I'd DEFINITELY opt for an install with nail fin.

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Randy
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#27 Post by Randy »

When you jump the sheetrock and sill, you end up having to add additional trim to the exterior of the window (photo attached). If you like the look of the additional trim, go ahead with the contractor who installs this way. It is certainly a lot faster and cheaper on them.
IMG_6540.JPG
The first photo shows the extra trim. The second photo shows what the window can look like when it extends past the exterior trim. Personally, I would never use either method.
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IMG_6855.jpg

Delaware Mike
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#28 Post by Delaware Mike »

If a finless replacement window is installed it would be advisable for it to at least be made a little smaller if not the sheetrock downsize sizing. You must get spray foam around the window as the mechanical flanged seal is now gone and you need squaring room Exterior vinyl j-channel will have flex to it, but resetting to the same exact position and having the level, window sash to frame reveals work correctly almost always requires a reposition. I'm not a fan of placing atop the bottom wood stool either. If the stool is out of level and one has to shim up one side of the new window's sill to make correct, that can be a sketchy area to try to caulk. I'd at least cut back the stool if a slip downsized method is opted for. Typical cut backs with flanged builder's grade vinyl to mid/premium grad is typically between 5/16" to 11/16". We do one of these projects about once a month.

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toddinmn
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#29 Post by toddinmn »

That second photo of Randy’s looks like a really bad option. That Looks like a window with J channel built in without fins, don’t think I seen one of those before.
Installing a finless window that has the frame sticking out beyond the drainage plane/ sheathing would be a big no no . I think they may fastened that window into the window casings. The first photo is hard to make out what they did but the detail at the bottom does not look promising and could have been avoided.
I don’t have a problem jumping Sheetrock returns when the existing windows have no exterior casings and and the windows are J’d in .

uncle eddie
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Re: just replacing the window glass instead of the entire window.

#30 Post by uncle eddie »

toddinmn wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:38 am That second photo of Randy’s looks like a really bad option. That Looks like a window with J channel built in without fins, don’t think I seen one of those before.
Installing a finless window that has the frame sticking out beyond the drainage plane/ sheathing would be a big no no . I think they may fastened that window into the window casings. The first photo is hard to make out what they did but the detail at the bottom does not look promising and could have been avoided.
I don’t have a problem jumping Sheetrock returns when the existing windows have no exterior casings and and the windows are J’d in .
Second that. That first photo just looks like a badly done replacement window, I'd be surprised if it even has sheetrock returns.
Second picture is one of the worst things I've seen. Hopefully that was a bad diy job and a "professional" wasn't actually paid for that.

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