Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

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megagreg
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#1 Post by megagreg »

We finally "jumped" and ordered our Simonton 5500 windows with JP Construction, not the cheapest, but the most trusted installer in our area :D

Our provider loaded the quote into Simonton system and the tool returned some issue with our large kitchen window
Today it is composed with two tall single hunge plus one small arch in the top
We requested a double (two panel) slider 30in tall (same height than our current bottom single hung window glass) and full screen with a large 58in tall picture window including the arch
Simonton representative converted the double slider 30in tall two panels into a three panels as shown below due to the weight of the picture window above it.
Also the resulting DP from the lower window is only 20 in this configuration due to the weight of the upper window

We are not big fans of this double slider three panels design especially considering that the screen will be half the width...

Plus Simonton representative made a comment that she would choose another stronger configuration like full/single picture window but this is the only window in this room so I am worry that the code reject it and my wife want a window to open when I cook (burn) the food :(

You already gave us great advices for our window options (Prosolar Shade, Supercept spacer 1", DP close to 50, Double Strength 1/8" or 3/16" glass) so I wondered if you would have some technical/aesthetic recommendation how to configure this window?

This window will be South West oriented and we live in Texas so I was going to contract a company to build a full screen that would cover the picture and the double slider window that would be mounted to the external sill in the brick wall (not to the vinyl frame to secure warranty)

What about increasing the height of the double slider window from 30in up to 44in and reduce the total picture height from 58in down to 44in? Do you think the tool would take it for a double slider/panel at the bottom and increase the DP?

Alternately, I read the post from JESOONSTER looking for similar solution for his office window and somebody proposed to reuse what his current window configuration with two arch-top single-hung windows (side by side), do you know if this option would be available at Simonton for the 5500?

Thanks in advance for your great help :wink:

Image

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Windows on Washington
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Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

With the Low-e 366, the reality is that there isn't going to be much (19% in this case) of the sun's energy coming through that opening. The screen option seems like it might be overkill and one more thing to add to the expense of the project.

That said, I don't live in SW Texas...but I know how hot it can be. SHGC of 0.19 is purdy darn low here.

I think that Simonton can make an arch...but don't hold me to that. Quick call to them should get you an answer once they are open.

Send them that picture and tell them you want a mulled twin single hung, arch top.

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TheWindowNerd
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Location: SE PA & NJ; DFW/Metroplex

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#3 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Design question should be handled by your contractor.
They know the details that can affect the design, both in product capability and and home owner desire.

For instance I see an arch top transom above a two section slider. Will the CMR bother the visual impact. Will it require a support mull and or track upgrade?

megagreg
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#4 Post by megagreg »

I feel like the project manager let the customer tell their preference then they load it into their supplier system who customize it for them. My project manager sent me the answer from the representative at ABCSupply to be transparent since he couldn’t answer himself.
Fortunately with the windows details that he sent me and thanks to your help I could spot some problems with the specifications. To be honest the kitchen windows is the only tricky one, others are much smaller and only require a single window plus we chose a lot of picture windows…

megagreg
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#5 Post by megagreg »

Sorry for my question but what is the CMR?
Do you mean that the top/picture window bottom frame would be thicker to include extra support?

What is we increase the height of the slider from 30in to 44in and reduce the height of the picture from 58in down to 44in, would it help to reduce the weight of the picture?

What would you propose alternately in addition to double single hung with top arch included (if Simonton supports it)?

Honnestly my feeling is that those guys enter the data in a computer program and tweek the numbers until the computer approves it, which is kind of disappointing 😢

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#6 Post by TheWindowNerd »

CMR= center meeting rail= where two sash meet.

System are built to handle standard values, you have to know the options items to work around special circumstances.

88" or 72" is wide for an unattached unsupported slider head frame. But a support mull would for sue make it doable.
I do not sell Simonton so I can not go into the quote system to work out the structural or design limits.

megagreg
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Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#7 Post by megagreg »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:28 am CMR= center meeting rail= where two sash meet.

System are built to handle standard values, you have to know the options items to work around special circumstances.

88" or 72" is wide for an unattached unsupported slider head frame. But a support mull would for sue make it doable.
I do not sell Simonton so I can not go into the quote system to work out the structural or design limits.
Thank you very much for your clear explanations

When JPC came to quote the work, we said we wanted/liked a 2-lite double-slider with a picture for the kitchen, they asked for the approximate height and we said 30in like the sash of our current single-sliders and their project manager acknowledged without saying it might not be possible.
We approved the quote and paid a part of the work and I asked to see the final order to make sure the options you recommended were correctly applied to every windows (to avoid waste of money) and JPC sent me ABCSupply order with every window detail and without pricing.
This is how we found out that they replaced the 2-lite by a 3-lite without notifying us about the change (otherwise we would have found out the day of the installation).

I confirm that in her reply email ABCS rep said clearly there is no way to put a 2-lite under such a heavy/large picture window and that system only let her choose a 3-lite slider. She said there was other option and that JPC had to go back to the drawing board but I am not sure he is doing it right now considering the amount of work they have in Texas 😢

I also confirm that the overall opening is 88in tall by 72in wide.

To summarize, it might be possible to put a slider but we must stay with a 3-lite model to have the two CMR to hold the upper picture window.

We are not opposite to a 3-lite design, but we would rather 3 glasses with same/proportionate sizes rather than a very large fixed in the middle and two small on the sides. With the frame the surface of glass on the mobile glasses may make it look like a RV window 😢

Between us those architects choosing arch top on most of front windows made it really harder for the maintenance really not a smart decision otherwise we would have put two slider windows and period

I confirm that ABCSupply rep immediately rejected the 2-lite and explained that 3-lite was the only option while she recommended to choose a picture window for higher strength which sounds weird to me considering the total surface and the wind we get sometime (maybe two picture windows)

What about replacing the slider by two 44in (tall) by 36in (wide) casement windows and keep the picture window above it, might it be stronger?

Bottom line here is some design that our neighbor chose for their windows and that we like

Image

And some that we dislike (even if they would be the easiest)

Image

jesoonster
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:00 pm

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#8 Post by jesoonster »

@megagreg

Glad to see fellow Austinite going through the same troubleshooting process! Would you mind talking on the phone about this? It would be great to talk about what you're going through. I've considered the bottom of the 2 pics you posted at 10:07 (DH) and my wife is cringing on the design and we are definitely leaning towards the slider so it's refreshing to see your post.

It's good to know that the DP rating drops significantly??? when you look at the slider option you presented (or are slider DP ratings that low???). My biggest dilemma is the height of the slider. Do I maximize the picture window viewing space to make the room look good or do I create more functionality by increasing the height of the slider? I don't have an answer. I'm trying to minimize the height of the slider b/c I never open the office eyebrow window anyway (except when I get renovations done and I need to open the window), but it still needs to be somewhat functional. I've gotten an initial recommendation from the contractor at 16"-20" for a 72" total height eyebrow but I question whether I should raise that higher....the slider window is too damn small.

megagreg
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#9 Post by megagreg »

@jesoonster
Sorry for the late reply, I completely skipped your message

Sure - we could certainly have a drink some evening to review our window project and exchange recommendations

Unfortunately we have not progressed much with our contractor to identify a kitchen window design that meet optimum performances and looks nice

We told him to replace the bottom double slider by a single slider and increase its height from 30 up to 40in but he just came back to me that the bottom window would be more fragile and ABCSupply recommend to stay with their initial proposal for a double slider 3-lite (25/50/25) 30in tall.

Question for the group imagining we put our design taste on the side would a DP of 20 for the bottom window (I assume once the picture window sits on it) would be really acceptable?

Every other window that we have has a DP between 50 and 65…

jesoonster
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Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#10 Post by jesoonster »

Thank you so much for replying! So that I don't get caught by the spam bots and get my email on a weird spam list....can you just email me at my user name at gmail? I will contact you and give you my phone and info. Thank you!

megagreg
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#11 Post by megagreg »

OK episode two for our kitchen window
We asked our contractor to replace the picture archtop plus bottom slider by a mulled twin single hung archtop however they changed the model from 5500 reflections to ProFinish Contractor.
The DP for each single hung archtop window is 20 which looks surprisingly low to me… below the rest of the specifications

Question is the Profinish contractor aestheticaly and quality-wise the same as 5500 reflections?

ProFinish Contractor Single Hung Extended Eyebrow 71.375" X 89" Frame Short Side = 83.75", Sash Split = Oriel, Operation = Operating / Operating, Operation = Operating, Frame = Deluxe J-Channel, Frame Modification = Both Fin and J- Channel Removed, Ext. Color = White, Int. Color = White, Glass Package = Energy Star Southern , , ProSolar Shade Low E, Argon, Super Spacer, 3/4", Glass Thickness = 1/8 in - 1/8 out DS, Upper = Annealed, Lower = Annealed, Locks = 2, White, Cam, Coastal Hardware, Screen Coverage = Half, Fiberglass, Roll-Formed, U-Factor = 0.3, SHGC = 0.22, VT = 0.5, STC = 0, Meets Energy Star Zones = North Central, South Central, Southern, DP = 20, AAMA, , Factory, 1/2 in H-Mullion (Vertical)

jesoonster
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Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#12 Post by jesoonster »

Gosh. I didn't even know dp20 windows exist...what a surprise you are having. I'm in the same boat so I feel you. I thought window manufacturers don't publish anything if it went down that low.

megagreg
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Design recommendation for 88in x 72in window with top arch

#13 Post by megagreg »

jesoonster wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:31 pm Gosh. I didn't even know dp20 windows exist...what a surprise you are having. I'm in the same boat so I feel you. I thought window manufacturers don't publish anything if it went down that low.
Me neither. The contractor simply trusts ABC supply to enter correctly the data in the computer and the agent even confessed in a message which I was copied « Engineers much smarter than me have programmed the quoting tool with all these scenarios so that it can give us accurate DP ratings under many different circumstances »
Bottom line both let the tool accept/reject the parameters entered, but they don’t really try different windows type or parameters to give us a satisfying proposal, I have to literally tell them « couid you try this or that » which is really frustrating for that price…

I don’t understand how mulled twin single hung windows with arch top end up with the same weak DP of 20 than the small 3-lite double slider seating under the large picture window, it doesn’t make any sense to me, I really feel like they are screwing up something

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