"Replacements" for Attached Townhouse

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TheWindowNerd
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: SE PA & NJ; DFW/Metroplex

Re: "Replacements" for Attached Townhouse

#16 Post by TheWindowNerd »

If I run numbers for a twin inert vs a full tear I come up with a 33% difference. But that does not include dropping siding. For that I would probably be double.

There is something that does not compare. $2800 vs $6000. I can believe the $6000 but not the $2800. The only way the $2800 makes sense is if they are doing 3 inserts into the existing bay frame and reshingling the existing roof, even at that I would not expect a stellar completion.

Delaware Mike
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

Re: "Replacements" for Attached Townhouse

#17 Post by Delaware Mike »

Performing a siding drop same sized flanged new construction installation verses a non-flanged slip downsized window is a night a day difference in the workload, time, and even skillset. Being the OCD don't care if I turn a penny profit on the job no-life having person that I am, it's the only way that I'll do these jobs. I'm usually stuck redoing all of the perimeter WRB/Tyvek as it's part of the water management to the wall and siding (if vinyl). I hate these jobs but they're at least 25% of my project now in my area as all of the $80 single hung builder's grade windows are at least 10-years past their expiration date.

One has to cut back the interior jamb returns and stool for correct mating of the new window's nailing flanged to the sheathing. Very, very rarely is the offset of the existing window dimensioning the same as the new window. Cutting back sheetrock is messy and wood jamb extensions can take even more time as both require layout and a precision cut. All that nailing of the siding and window nail fin can require some painting after the crew leaves due to weak inferior framing of the walls and interior joint compound work (nail pops). I've been screwing my window flanges in lately as there is less pounding on the wall.

I'm stuck trying to gauge the fade of your vinyl siding to obtain new modern 1" faced vinyl j-channel, thus I'm playing with my siding swatches trying to make things look as professional as possible (white is easy). All the panels removed have to be placed back like a puzzle in the exact order in which there were removed, which means sort of putting numbers and left/right ID on them. Not a big deal, but one has to scribe the panels before they are removed onto the existing WRB of carefully unlock and lift the panel off the siding/roofing nails while leaving the nails in place as the reference for re-hanging of the siding. If you're putting up new housewrap which I find is the case at least 75% of the time, you lose all of your reference marks and nails as the nails have to be nailed flush with the sheathing. Now, one has to hang the siding correctly, however the speed oriented lowest bid outfit's subs had guys not hang the siding correctly and panels were never fully locked. This causes the panels that are now correctly hung to not work with the top coarse of siding that maybe wasn't removed above the windows. It presents an issue of having really good experienced installers to perform this method. They should have a real good background with siding and flashing.

A good experienced crew of two window pros might be able to get 3-5 windows a day at best on a multi-story house like this. With the non-flanged downsized slip, maybe up to 8-12? There is a ton of behind the scenes stuff to like prepping the new windows by cleaning off excess weld flash so the j-channel lays flat against it, cleaning glass, blowing out vinyl shavings, drop cloth and poly for all that cutting, breaking down of the old windows so it works best for removal from jobsite and disposal.

In my area I've found that window pros are charging approximately $300 to $400 more per opening for this method.

lsedels
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:13 pm

Re: "Replacements" for Attached Townhouse

#18 Post by lsedels »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:34 am If I run numbers for a twin inert vs a full tear I come up with a 33% difference. But that does not include dropping siding. For that I would probably be double.

There is something that does not compare. $2800 vs $6000. I can believe the $6000 but not the $2800. The only way the $2800 makes sense is if they are doing 3 inserts into the existing bay frame and reshingling the existing roof, even at that I would not expect a stellar completion.
Thanks. $6000 too steep for my pockets. I have three of them. I'll never get that back when I sell the house. As for the $2800, I'd have to ask them exactly what they do with the bay windows - I'd bet all they do is putting the new windows into the existing frame and probably don't touch anything else.

lsedels
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:13 pm

Re: "Replacements" for Attached Townhouse

#19 Post by lsedels »

Delaware Mike wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:32 am Performing a siding drop same sized flanged new construction installation verses a non-flanged slip downsized window is a night a day difference in the workload, time, and even skillset. Being the OCD don't care if I turn a penny profit on the job no-life having person that I am, it's the only way that I'll do these jobs. I'm usually stuck redoing all of the perimeter WRB/Tyvek as it's part of the water management to the wall and siding (if vinyl). I hate these jobs but they're at least 25% of my project now in my area as all of the $80 single hung builder's grade windows are at least 10-years past their expiration date.

One has to cut back the interior jamb returns and stool for correct mating of the new window's nailing flanged to the sheathing. Very, very rarely is the offset of the existing window dimensioning the same as the new window. Cutting back sheetrock is messy and wood jamb extensions can take even more time as both require layout and a precision cut. All that nailing of the siding and window nail fin can require some painting after the crew leaves due to weak inferior framing of the walls and interior joint compound work (nail pops). I've been screwing my window flanges in lately as there is less pounding on the wall.

I'm stuck trying to gauge the fade of your vinyl siding to obtain new modern 1" faced vinyl j-channel, thus I'm playing with my siding swatches trying to make things look as professional as possible (white is easy). All the panels removed have to be placed back like a puzzle in the exact order in which there were removed, which means sort of putting numbers and left/right ID on them. Not a big deal, but one has to scribe the panels before they are removed onto the existing WRB of carefully unlock and lift the panel off the siding/roofing nails while leaving the nails in place as the reference for re-hanging of the siding. If you're putting up new housewrap which I find is the case at least 75% of the time, you lose all of your reference marks and nails as the nails have to be nailed flush with the sheathing. Now, one has to hang the siding correctly, however the speed oriented lowest bid outfit's subs had guys not hang the siding correctly and panels were never fully locked. This causes the panels that are now correctly hung to not work with the top coarse of siding that maybe wasn't removed above the windows. It presents an issue of having really good experienced installers to perform this method. They should have a real good background with siding and flashing.

A good experienced crew of two window pros might be able to get 3-5 windows a day at best on a multi-story house like this. With the non-flanged downsized slip, maybe up to 8-12? There is a ton of behind the scenes stuff to like prepping the new windows by cleaning off excess weld flash so the j-channel lays flat against it, cleaning glass, blowing out vinyl shavings, drop cloth and poly for all that cutting, breaking down of the old windows so it works best for removal from jobsite and disposal.

In my area I've found that window pros are charging approximately $300 to $400 more per opening for this method.
Thanks so much for the detailed perspective. Very interesting.

So I have no objection to spending a few hundred dollars more per window for the new construction approach. The contractor who does this is asking for $1300 vs $800. While this seems high, it's not completely unreasonable. For my Double Windows and for my Bay Windows though, the difference is insane. $2800 vs. $6000 for a bay and $1600 vs. $3200 for a Double. I understand that Bays entail more work. But still, this inflates the cost of the entire project way beyond what I can do and it will certainly not pay back when selling the house. Am I willing to pay more for the kind of detail that you went through? Sure! But 20% more, 25% more, 30% more even maybe 50% more. Not 200% more. I'll take my chances on selling the house with the old windows and getting a lower selling price. At least the money at that point will come out of the proceeds I get for the house instead of my assets/savings which I need to live on.

Thanks again.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: "Replacements" for Attached Townhouse

#20 Post by TheWindowNerd »

The numbers say there is something not being compared properly.
You need to uncover what that is. You may need clarification from both companies.

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