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Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#31 Post by Guy »

ProFx, You've just answered all the constant bashing we've been doing fro the past few years. Your statement was

"I too would go to all extremes to make sure there was no cold or air infiltrating your installed windows. Temps. like -20, make me shiver just thinking about it. And I know the pride you take in your work with your name on it and your going to make sure it performs".

This sums up our entire push for a controlled program. We should be installing windows the same way no matter where we are. The heat of the South can infiltrate just as much as the cold of the North. If we take the same stance on installation we terminate 75% of the idiots like the one in the initial post. You and I may take great pride in what we do every day. This kind of program is only putting all installers on the same page. I for one am tired of the hack installer. I see it everyday and have to try and fix their mistakes. I've tried so hard to fix other peoples stupid mistakes it's landed me in court fighting for my honor. Just because I was doing someone a favor. So I've changed my name to Bufford Pusser and got myself a big old bat. I'll take on the world with FeneX and we will prove our point sooner or later. If the hacks and undesirables want to stand in our way, I'll be clearing a road from here to Washington. We are making a change for the good of everyone. It's time people opened their eyes to what is going on around here. It's an epidemic that needs to be brought under control. Take some time to look into what we are talking about. You'll see it makes a difference more than you think. In the end the only ones who will bash us will be the companies who don't see the light and the installers who don't care! Help us fight for the betterment of our industry!

ProfX
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:24 pm
Location: Southeast

#32 Post by ProfX »

FenEx

I have not intentionally pursued your posts to jab at you. I read these threads and if I have any firsthand knowledge of products or installation practices, I'll voice my opinion. Which comes from eight years of installation, certifications, and my research in this field. I don't claim to know even near as much as you in this industry. I have actually learned several things from some of your posts. But if I have a different view on something then I will respond. We've had several differences on this board from my stated installation prices, which in my case I can do lower than most because of liitle overhead, to installation practices. In this industry I'm not striving for a multi-million dollar business. As of now all business I receive is from word of mouth, my work speaks for itself. I have no customers on this board to research my beliefs, I reply to people on this board, because of my interest in this industry and my willingness to help. Once I have a website set up it will be posted, but till then visitors to this board can research what I address in posts, and either agree or disagree with my beleifs. Just like they can with everyone that posts.

ProfX
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:24 pm
Location: Southeast

#33 Post by ProfX »

Guy

Just read your post. I have been an employee in this industry and a sub-contractor, going back on others jobs, for mis-measured windows, service, etc. I have about flipped out. Several installers in this industry have no pride, I've gone to jobs where the metal misses touching the window by a 1/2" with no insulation behind it. Windows so out of square only one lock on a double lock would throw. I mean how hard is it to check your reveal when setting the window, or sticking insulation in an open cavity, or making your exterior capping tight to the 1/8". I've caused myself several headaches from telling customers their windows were installed incorrectly and having to fix them myself... as you know it's so much easier to do it right the first time. What I have told the original poster is how I've done things. Guy let me run through how we do things quickly and tell me what you think. 95% of our windows installed are removed from the exterior by chiseling the blindstop and pulling the old sash. After brushing the opening I apply silicone to where the existing stop meets the jambs on sides and top, also where stool meets sill. The window is placed in the opening and set in place with four to six screws making sure reveals are even. Window is then sealed on interior where stops and stool meet the window with a good quality latex or acrylic. Then since our windows are tight in the opening with the foam surround. We insulate at each top corner and underneath the sill. The capping is broke to the 1/8" I have it go underneath the window on the sill, to have a good point to seal (as I really dont beleive there's a way to seal with a tension bend on the sill.) Then I do put a tension bend on the sides and head and lay a nice bead of silicone where the tension bend meets the window, and wipe off any excess caulk. After the window is capped it's sealed wherever we think there's a chance air could infiltrate. As I've said I haven't had any problems with this method. I'll do anything I can to help with the betterment of this industry.

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#34 Post by windowshopper »

I specifically stated how I wanted insulation as part of the installation numerous times. I went so far as to tell the guy make sure you are willing to do what I want for the price you are charging me for the windows. I called back within the period of right of cancellation and wanted the contract to be more specific about the insulation and the person insisted that it was included already, that I would be taken care of and the job done right.

When they called to measure I said I could not leave work and that I had wanted to be there to talk to him. He asked about what and I mentioned insulation again at this point to the person who was going to measure for the windows that same day. The person measures that day and measures (according to him)tight so they would not need insulation. I talked to him twice about this during the installation and they continued. Unfortunately I was stupid enough to pay them when they were done. I wanted to make sure first that my expectations were not unreasonable and get some opinions from experienced people but when I specifically stated what I wanted done and it was done differently I am definitely not being unreasonable in any way. How else can I look at this other than to think that they told me what they had to to get me to sign the contract and had no intention of doing it the way I specified to have it done. The company who installed the windows own website says (we fully insulate around your new windows or door to prevent needless energy loss). How can you consider what they did fully insulating around the windows?

As far as the owner of the window company willing to accept that type of installation, I find that totally unacceptable, it also makes me wonder what he is willing to accept during the manufacturing process. I will never again consider any of his products. Now I am contacting the company to see what can and will be done.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#35 Post by Guy »

Window shopper you are absolutely correct on how you feel and what your going after. If you told them numerous times then it's their issue. Go get them!!!

ProFx, Your method is very similar to mine. The difference is we use a reciprocating saw to cut the outside blind stops off. after we install the unit and insulate with low expansion foam. We nail the stops back in place. We then do our wrap. We won't always do it from the outside in. If the opening has a nice removable stop we will do it from the inside.

As for the push from Fen and myself on proper procedures and methods of sales and installation. He has opened up an entirely different world to me over two years ago. I'm as stubborn as the next when it comes to change. But I really grasped on to what he was telling everyone. It made more sense to me than you could ever imagine. We've become great advocates of this method. I've also taken time to finally meet him personally and go into these ways in greater detail. Our crusade to change the industry will take some time and effort on our part. We aren't making any money doing it in any way. It's all about quality and doing what's best. So the more people we get to help the faster we can make the change.

Mass. window guy
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Location: Massachusetts

#36 Post by Mass. window guy »

window shopper,
First of all, I would not worry too much about the permit- but I would certainly let the owner know all of your concerns.
I would insist someone come out from the company to inspect one window- I think they at least owe you that.
As for the foam wrap- if the opening were as tight as you describe, the window would not have fit with the foam wrap installed. You also say that the installer said it was tight to one side and not centered when you saw the sunlight and the installer said the sunlight would go away when he centered the window in the opening. If this is true, it sounds like there is plenty of room to insulate with the spray foam or fiberglass.
If they have a service department, I would suggest you ask them to send someone over to double check the sub-contracter. It sounds like the company protocol is to insulate the perimeter of every window, and the sub-contractor was honest enough to say "I did not insulate the perimeter". That is not acceptable- the owner or a responsible person from the company should come out to prove you right or wrong.
I have seen many customers over the years that have unrealistic expectations at the end of the job. EVERY time a customer in our company has an issue, it is investigated. If we believe it is not reasonable, we will not correct it and explain why it is not going to be done. If it is legitimate we will correct it. There are times we cannot please a customer no matter what we do.
Just a quick question though- did they order the window as a replacement or a new construction? (I apologize if you already stated this in another post on this thread- it was too long to read all of them!)

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#37 Post by windowshopper »

These were replacement windows. I did not say they fit tight I said there were gaps. You really would have had to see it. I asked for insulation to be put in when the windows were installed and it was not. Their website claims they fully insulate around the windows. This is in no way an unreal expectation on my part. If this is the same Mass. window guy you have been out to my house. The installer said they do not need insulation around the windows. The owner the other day said I did not have those things in the side channels if so they would have put insulation in there. So this is acceptable to them even though it goes against their claim of fully insulating. Yes, it would seem that at least one window will have to be taken apart. At that point I would like someone there on my behalf that I can trust to give me their opinion on what they see. Do you know where I can find someone to do that Mass. window guy?

jack7447
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: boston

#38 Post by jack7447 »

windowshopper I think every window person in Boston has been out
to see you .I made a mark on your fence I guess mass.window guy
didnt see it.Good luck to you him and the RED SOX!P.S ONE WINDOW
JOB 139 POSTS GOD HELP US ALL.

WGorell
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Indiana PA

#39 Post by WGorell »

To all:
Seems that there has been way to much written here, and a lot of offense taken. Our research, whether you believe it or not, says the closed cell foam wrap works as well as any other product in stopping air infiltration into the home. One of the best parts of it is that it comes on the window so for those installers who are not as meticulous as those responding here, we get a decent seal between the window and the collateral conditions in most installations.

Canned foam is interesting but the low expansion version does just that and does not fill all the necessary areas. High expansion fills everything but can distort the window frame. Foam also has some problems with adhesion on some surfaces, especially wet ones, and some studies shows it deteriorates under certain conditions and over time.

I applaud the quality ethics of the respondents, but I'm quite sure they are not the industry norm, and that is why we believe closed cell foam is the best overall solution. A well sealed exterior along with the closed cell foam to the interior is very effective, perhaps not perfect, but very effective.
Wayne Gorell

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#40 Post by windowshopper »

jack7447

As usual with your type you don!t have the facts straight. If you don!t like the number of posts someone makes don!t read the forum.

WGorell
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Indiana PA

#41 Post by WGorell »

To all:
I first posted this on the wrong link, shows my computer skills.
Seems that there has been way to much written here, and a lot of offense taken. Our research, whether you believe it or not, says the closed cell foam wrap works as well as any other product in stopping air infiltration into the home. One of the best parts of it is that it comes on the window so for those installers who are not as meticulous as those responding here, we get a decent seal between the window and the collateral conditions in most installations.

Canned foam is interesting but the low expansion version does just that and does not fill all the necessary areas. High expansion fills everything but can distort the window frame. Foam also has some problems with adhesion on some surfaces, especially wet ones, and some studies shows it deteriorates under certain conditions and over time.

I applaud the quality ethics of the respondents, but I'm quite sure they are not the industry norm, and that is why we believe closed cell foam is the best overall solution. A well sealed exterior along with the closed cell foam to the interior is very effective, perhaps not perfect, but very effective.
Wayne Gorell

Mass. window guy
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:30 pm
Location: Massachusetts

#42 Post by Mass. window guy »

window shopper,
we are a little backed up right now with installs, but I could probably send over someone after the 1st of the year to act as a 3rd party for you and give an unbiased opinion.

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

Update

#43 Post by windowshopper »

As of yet my email has not been answered but they changed their website so that it does not say they fully insulate around the windows as it had yesterday, but I saved it in its previous form. Obviously they know that it did say that. I probably should not have pointed that out but you would think that the company would be willing to make good on that statement knowing that it had stated such.

Mass window guy

Thank you for the offer, yes if you could send someone over when you can do so for an unbiased opinion for an inspection that would be very much appreciated. I have sent an email asking for that to happen stating that it will be some time after the first of the year.

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