Window installation question

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WGorell
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Indiana PA

#16 Post by WGorell »

Windowshopper,
Whole lot of correspondence going on. If the installer has 9 years experience and you trust the dealer's expertise, I would accept the explanation that when the window was squared to the opening the gaps were taken care of because our foam wrap extends about a 1/2" from the frame. Many opening are skewed and the good installers keep the window square but fit it to the opening as closely as possible, that is why we make windows every 1/8" width and height and foam wrap all of them.

My advice is to live with the windows through the weekend. See if you feel any drafts, or if your home remains comfortable, if you do, contact the dealer Monday morning, if you don't, enjoy your new windows.
Wayne Gorell

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#17 Post by windowshopper »

Mr Gorell

One of the windows upstairs had what must have been at least a 3/8 gap and he said it was all the way to the right and when he moved it over it would fill it in. I am not talking about 1/8 inch gaps here. The old windows had plastic inserts on both sides that were removed, I don!t know if he took that into consideration when measuring the new. Some windows had gaps on both sides. I want everyone to understand that I like the windows very much. I am not complaining about the product. I will say that the downstairs is still cold, that has not changed.

How many places does the window screw to the house at? Just in the middle of the window? How far does screwing it down pull it in?

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#18 Post by windowshopper »

Maybe I am missing something here, I hope so for my sake. I am not experienced at installation and he is. He knew that while I was not over his shoulder or in the way or harassing him that I was taking a look now and then. I addressed this issue with him twice so it would have been stupid for him to just ignore me and do a lousy job because he knew I was concerned with having it done right. What I saw did not make sense to me but I could be wrong. I should have asked to see it before the trim and caulking was put on after it had been squared and screwed down and that would have left no doubt. The company has been in business a long time and the owner has shown willingness to address issues quickly. It is written into the contract that there will be no service charge for as long as I own the home. Also lifetime installation warranty. Under the circumstances it would seem like I could relax and see what happens and if there are any problems deal with it at a later date.

I am still curious to know at how many places the window screws to the house.

Thanks

I would still like to know at how many places the windows screws to the house.


Thanks

WGorell
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Indiana PA

#19 Post by WGorell »

Windowshopper
Normal installation is one screw to each side of the top sash and one screw to each side of the bottom sash. There are also Jamb adjustment screws at the center of the window in both tracks to square the window to the opening. Installation methods and procedures do vary depending on the existing conditions. If it is a dealer who has been in business a long time and has guaranteed his work, I agree, you have no reason to be alarmed at this point. Give it a little time and enjoy your new windows.
Wayne Gorell

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#20 Post by FenEx »

Amazing...

I must say that I am completely suprised by the previous responses. To even give the impression to installers that the narrow factory applied soft, open-celled foam tape is proper or adequate by itself as insulation or an air-infiltration barrier is absurd. To insinuate that if you don't feel a noticeable direct draft means that you should live with it or that it's done right and will be energy efficient is equally rediculous. The installer said, "yes, we will insulate"... and then admitted that they did not. The Gorell frame is fusion welded and will not stretch to fit the opening tighter. The uninsulated gaps will simply be moved from side to side.

WGorell.... a simple question. If "your" windows were being installed in "your" house... would you have insisted that the extra 3-5 minutes and effort been spent to insure the best possible result on each window? I believe that is what Windowshopper was expecting. Even products of quality, including yours, will only perform as well as the install.

WGorell
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Indiana PA

#21 Post by WGorell »

Fenex,
I do have Gorell windows installed on my house, and they do not have additional insulation stuffed around them, just the closed cell foam, which by the way does an excellent job of stopping air infiltration. Fiber insulation only functions if it is lose (ask the people who make it), if it is forced into an 1/8" gap, all the air is forced out and it is the air that makes it work as insulation, which is why the closed cell foam works better than fiberglass insulation for window instalations, the air is trapped and blocked no matter the compression.

The main objective of insulating around the windows is to stop air penetration from the outside and from inside the wall cavity, from penetrating to the interior of the home. The foam cell insulation accomplishes that better than anything we have researched. Having been making replacement windows for about 40 years, I've been involved with hundreds of laboratory tests on what works and what doesn't work with installation. Closed cell foam wrap beats fiberglass insulation hands down in every evaluation.
Wayne Gorell

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#22 Post by Guy »

Wayne, As a man of the field in more cases than most. I tend to agree with Fenex on the issue that in our climate here in the upper midwest. It's not enough insulation for the window. Yes I've installed some of your windows up here and I hate to say it but I tore the foam off the window and used a Low Expansion foam in it's place. I know the low expansion foam works better than anything on the market because I saw test results that Pella spent a boat load of money on researching. If I could have gotten out of there with the document I would have. They tested everything from newspaper to closed cell foam. The low expansion foam performed hands down better than any of the others. Any irregular opening or frame components with any imperfections will not be sealed with the foam. Expansion foam will fill and adhere to these low level area's. As for chinked in fiberglass, it's not doing you any good. Just as you stated above and Fenex earlier in this post. The 3.50" pink fiberglass is at it's best when it's relaxed and puffed out. So by squeezing it down it looses it's R value.

I've tested a couple closed cell foams in the field and found them to work great in areas that we had to insulate before the window was inserted. If we had an odd opening with cuts and gaps out of the ordinary the closed cell laid over the gap with out filling the void. Here in MN it's not acceptable to even have a pin hole for air to penetrate. If an installer made an error insulating and he admits it. He should be held responsible to do it the way the customer has asked. Even if it's not the standard application. To put a little more insulation around the window is better than having some one question it here on the web. Even if the installer is a nine year veteran doesn't mean didley squat. I've been doing this stuff for 30 years plus and still slip up. I think it's memory loss now because of age. I find myself at 45 making mistakes I've never made. Now I second guess myself all the time. That's my problem though.

Mr. Gorrell I think you have a great window. I mean no disrespect to you or your company in any way. But I don't think even you would mind any installer adding more insulation around your closed cell tape would you? Heck Pella's installation procedure doesn't require back caulking the nail fin. They don't pitch any beef when I tell them I don't care what their instructions say, I'm back caulking the fin like it or not. Ounce I hang that window my name is on it next to Pella. So another line of defense is welcome in my book. Any good installer out here would be more than happy to go out and pull the trim to show the customer. Unless he had something to hide!!!

Just an added note: How many other window manufacturer's out there would stand behind a half inch piece of foam being the only barrier protecting air infiltration on their window? Just interested
Last edited by Guy on Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#23 Post by FenEx »

WGorell

I don't see where your comments apply to mine. I clearly and repeatedly did not recommend packed fiber insulation. I recommended an application of "wet" insulating foam that will find and seal points of air infiltration and maintain a consistant insulating value beyond your factory weatherstrip. Any foam that is compressed will lose R-value and any foam tape has expansion limitations as to how it will conform to imperfections around it. As for your comment of, "Closed cell foam wrap beats fiberglass insulation hands down in every evaluation.", that depends on the install. Your foam wrap has a 1/2" memory and inherent stretch restrictions limiting it's ability to catch all imperfections on it's own. A wet applied foam does not and maintains a constant R-value per inch as it cures in every area it reaches.

I can appreciate your 40 years of experience with complete respect and admiration, but products and installation methods change constantly... and the results are undeniable. Believe it or not.. we are on the same side here... I think. As you stated, you have been involved on hundreds of laboratory tests on what works... my research and the organizations I work with are based on the actual performance of those products in homes that they are used in.

When making my previous post, I didn't anticipate an agreeable reply... but I did think that you would atleast agree that plugging in a window with stock foam wrap alone was not endorsed by Gorell corporate as the best install possible. Disappointing.

windowshopper
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:04 am

#24 Post by windowshopper »

My windows were installed from the inside. He put the outside capping on before he installed the windows, is that the right way to do it? The foam strip around the window frame that Mr Gorell refers to does not cover the frame from edge to edge, it is in the middle section and did not appear to stick out too far, that is why I was concerned. They put the outside capping on first, slide the window into the opening, there are gaps on the sides, they screw the window in, put the trim on and caulk the inside and outside around the window and claim that the foam is going to provide proper insulation for the windows. Despite my inexperience in this area I can!t see how that is possible.

Is it right to do the outside capping first especially when there is no additional insulation being put in?

Window4U (IL)
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois

#25 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Capping the exterior first on a standard job such as yours is just fine as long as they go back and caulk the window on the outside after they install it.

Many times installers will do this on upper floors because it's easier to cap it from inside of the house while hanging out. An installer can save time on moving ladders and possibly damaging siding by doing it this way.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#26 Post by Guy »

W4U is correct on that with me. The more that an installer can do from the inside with out climbing the ladder is the best way for us. Ladders can get heavy and awkward to move around all day. Add the snow outside and it really bites. So by pre-wrapping the opening and then sliding the window in is always on my list for this.

ProfX
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:24 pm
Location: Southeast

#27 Post by ProfX »

On second story windows or hard to reach ones, I like to do the window from the interior. I'll remove the interior trim, remove the window, set in the new unit, secure it to the opening, then remove the sash, and hang out of the opening to wrap. With pre wrapping that window is not always going to sit right where you think it might, and I don't like my metal to even be off 1/8". About the foam wrap, if the window is measured correctly that's all that is needed in my opinion, if when inserting the window in the opening it slightly compresses, you've filled the gaps. I think it's an honor to have someone of WGorell's caliber on this site and if the man says he thinks that the foam wrap is all that is required through his own companies research, I for one beleive him. Fenex I've seen you give out a ton of good information on this site, but I've also seen you cut down a lot of people without being able to back it up. Show us your evidence with numbers of why a foam wrap install is not acceptable. Using words like "Dissapointing" and "amazing" is disrespectful. I think a man who runs a multi-million dollar company is their for a reason, and I beleive he is up-to-date with current installation methods, for his and his customers sake.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#28 Post by Guy »

ProFx we are usually on the same page most the time. I tend to think your off on this one. I've seen study materials on the use of closed or soft cell foams. One study has it breaking down and falling apart after fifteen years. Others have it doing the sponge effect and sucking up water. I don't know the brand or properties of the foam backer on Gorrell's window so I can't make any judgment in any way. I have seen first hand the non filling aspects of this foam. If the opening is out of square or has any imperfections the foam will not completely seal the frame off. I'm sorry for disagreeing here but it's based off what I've seen and read. Pella's study on air infiltration gave this foam a zero R value upon the fact that it's not thick or rigid enough to stay in place and keep a good seal. The study also showed it wicked water and held it to the wood causing water damage. I can't get the actual document I read because it's not suppose to be published. Personally I would tend to tear it off and use my own methods. I don't care who's window it is or how it's made. When it comes to the seal and wether it will fail or not. It's my name on it and I have to cover the leakage warranty in our state for a minimum of ten years from the date of install. So I'm legally obligated to do the best I can to protect the home and the customer from something I don't feel is more than adequate. It's not always right to do it the quickest and cheapest way. It will come back to bite you in the long run!!

ProfX
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:24 pm
Location: Southeast

#29 Post by ProfX »

Guy I would say in your area, I too would go to all extremes to make sure there was no cold or air infiltratring your installed windows. Temps. like -20, make me shiver just thinking about it. And I know the pride you take in your work with your name on it and your going to make sure it performs. I feel the same way, being between the smoky mts. and appalachians we have pretty cool winters. I also beleive in quality of a job done and the self-selling a good job will do for you. If I measure the replacement window a 1/4" cutback from exact, I feel comfortable and confident in the foam on the sides and head, the only other insulation I use is a bat of R-11 3" wide w/facing still attached, under the window. Then with proper capping and sealing, their should never be a problem. I'm still yet to see one on one of my jobs. I work for quality everyday, as quantity will bring you problems. Were still on the same page buddy, just different paragraphs. :D

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#30 Post by FenEx »

Profx

Several of your last posts have included reference to mine and some sort of jab... It doesn't bother me, I'm used to it. My position in this industry is often times not a very popular one. As per my previous posts in this thread, disagreement and disrespect are two totally different things. Disagreeing with someone is not cutting them down.. it's sharing an alternative view.

This thread was started by a homeowner concerned about the install of their new windows. It is irrelevant what brand it was. The homeowner was made promises that were not kept... and the concerns were indeed valid. In this individual case, the manufacturer was actually willing to participate in the discussion as well, which I applaud. The simple point was if this was the best install possible within reason... the simple answer is, it is not. Read the homeowner's descriptions of the install process.

You made the comment, "I think it's an honor to have someone of WGorell's caliber on this site and if the man says he thinks that the foam wrap is all that is required through his own companies research, I for one beleive him." Profx, believe what you wish from the sources you choose... but I recieve information from many CEOs and government funded agencies and authorities... what I believe is physics, and what I see for myself in people's homes... which is not limited to individual lab results and selective release of information.

Every major manufacturer of windows, siding, roofing and let's include the homebuilders, have done their research... and most of them vary with their opinions and support their choices. Where the ball is dropped is by their lack of knowledge of how those products will be actually installed in a structure and how those variations can drastically affect the same. To most manufacturers... it's not a pressing matter... they provided a product that is shielded from blame as the fingers are easily pointed elsewhere in the home.... existing conditions, the installers, the homeowner... etc. This is not directed at any specific manufacturer... but until each area involved takes a serious stand... the problem remains. This undesireable area is my stand, which happens to be shared by many high level authorities.

I applaud the original poster for "NOT" just accepting a manufacturer's general recommendation. Their house isn't general... it's individual... as every house is. It would have taken minimal effort and expense by the installer to take the extra step. As it appears that you are on the West Coast, you might want to catch up real soon.... the performance testing of homes and installed products in Cali is growing at a tremendous rate and is supported by state and federal government organizations.

As you appear confident that this is the best installation for your clients as well... please post the name of your company like the rest of us have. Atleast you will be honest upfront and allow your customers to research on their own and decide if they agree with your beliefs and the reasons for them before they sign the contract.

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