I realize this forum is about replacement windows but I'm assuming a lot of information relates to new construction also. My wife and I are about to sign a contract for a new home. The builder is using Barber Ross Aluminum clad wood windows and asssured me they met energy star qualifications.
Going to the BR web sites, I find the casement windows to have a U value of .44. This doess not seem very good to me. There are other windows that some people on this forum have posted negative comments about specificall Pella proline but at least the published u values for the PP are in the low 30s, which is where I think a good performing window should be..
These numbers are for a low e / argon window.
If the published numbers for the BR are correct, what is it about their construction that yields such a poor U value? I have never heard of this BR but on investigation, it appears to be a builder-direct distributer.
The builder want to send me to a salesman, but I prefer to get information from independent sources. If anyone can tell me about the BR, I'd appreciate it. Please
Barber Ross Windows information hurry please signing contrac
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windowguru
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
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- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
I just looked on their website. I am not familiar with this company so my opinion is purely speculative and based only on website observations.
Though it looks like an old and respected millwork company, the corner cuts of the window look pretty anemic, especially on the doublehungs. I too suspect they are a lower priced builders unit. Maybe someone from out that way can be more helpful with personal knowledge of them.
http://www.barberandross.com/windows/al ... x.htm#case
Though it looks like an old and respected millwork company, the corner cuts of the window look pretty anemic, especially on the doublehungs. I too suspect they are a lower priced builders unit. Maybe someone from out that way can be more helpful with personal knowledge of them.
http://www.barberandross.com/windows/al ... x.htm#case
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usmarine0352
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- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:35 pm
That U-Value does seem very bad. With a U-Value you want to have a lower number (just like in golf).
The U-Value also depends on where you live. You may not need a U-Value as low as .14 uf you live in CA.
How far are you along in your home building? If it's already to the point where windows need to be put in, you may be past that choice.
Sometimes you can choose your own window, pay for it, and the contracter will install it for you.
In certain cases you can have the builder "Upgrade" you to a better window, just like you can upgrade the bathroom to have a jacuzzi or whatnot.
Good luck.
The U-Value also depends on where you live. You may not need a U-Value as low as .14 uf you live in CA.
How far are you along in your home building? If it's already to the point where windows need to be put in, you may be past that choice.
Sometimes you can choose your own window, pay for it, and the contracter will install it for you.
In certain cases you can have the builder "Upgrade" you to a better window, just like you can upgrade the bathroom to have a jacuzzi or whatnot.
Good luck.
Why is one window lower performaning than another?
In my post, I said we are about to sign a contract to purchase the house. At the initial price quoted, it included vinyl windows from this same company (barber ross). The upgrade to wood / clad windows is what we selected and now I am looking at this unit and I fully realize a U of .44 is not good.
I am also aware that I can upgrade to a window of my own choosing, but obviously that will add money and our mortgage commitment is limited.
From what I've been able to learn, these barber ross windows are incrediblly inexpensive. A upgrade is going to cost me several thousand dollars.
What I was hoping to learn was how a window can have such a poor U value? All the windows I am looking at have Low E/ argon. I understand the U value is more than just the glass, but includes wood, aluminum, sash liner and some weatherstripping. How can one window be so much poorer rated than another? Before you answer about thickness please read the rest.
Although no one on this forum is familiar with the barber ross, I was hopng someone could tell me what is it about a window that can improve the U rating? I thought Pella Proline with a thin frame, sash, cheap looking sash liner, etc was poorly made, but it still has a decent U value.
So beyond thin materials, etc what is it about a window that contributes to a poor U value?
I am also aware that I can upgrade to a window of my own choosing, but obviously that will add money and our mortgage commitment is limited.
From what I've been able to learn, these barber ross windows are incrediblly inexpensive. A upgrade is going to cost me several thousand dollars.
What I was hoping to learn was how a window can have such a poor U value? All the windows I am looking at have Low E/ argon. I understand the U value is more than just the glass, but includes wood, aluminum, sash liner and some weatherstripping. How can one window be so much poorer rated than another? Before you answer about thickness please read the rest.
Although no one on this forum is familiar with the barber ross, I was hopng someone could tell me what is it about a window that can improve the U rating? I thought Pella Proline with a thin frame, sash, cheap looking sash liner, etc was poorly made, but it still has a decent U value.
So beyond thin materials, etc what is it about a window that contributes to a poor U value?
Re: Why is one window lower performing than another?
There are several reasons that the window might have a U value of only .44 and still have Low E. The total-unit U value is calculated by including the glass, any possible gas filling and coatings, the spacer that separates the glass, the sash material, and the frame material.jimranger wrote:So beyond thin materials, etc what is it about a window that contributes to a poor U value?
At first glance, since most windows have a U value in the .3s if they're Low E/argon, one might guess that the windows you're looking at with U = .44 are not Low E. However a wood/clad window without Low E or argon would actually be closer to .5. So I'm thinking you must have Low E at a minimum (like you said). The following are some of the possible reasons that the windows you are looking at are a .44 instead of in the .3s. We will assume a wood/clad Pella Proline at U= .32 as you mentioned for comparison:
A. Perhaps the Barber & Ross windows have the Low E but not the argon (it's an option). Add about .03 to the U value if omitting argon
B. Add .01 to .02 to the U value if adding grilles between the glass
C. Add .01 to .03 if using an aluminum spacer instead of a warm edge spacer.
D. Add .01 to the U value if the IG airspace is not an optimal size
E. Add a whopping .04 if the glass is high altitude glass
F. There might be other variables, such as the thickness of the wood and amount of wood vs. aluminum cladding.
A few thoughts on your statement "I thought Pella Proline with a thin frame, sash, cheap looking sash liner, etc was poorly made, but it still has a decent U value."
I would respectfully suggest "you thought wrong." For a wood/clad window Pella Proline is very good performer. Wood windows (as well as aluminum and fiberglass windows) can have a thinner sash than their vinyl counterparts because they're stronger. (That's not saying wood is better - vinyl has different characteristics than other materials and is made accordingly to perform) In fact, Proline's sashes are 1-3/4" thick, whereas 90% of the wood double hungs out there are only 1-3/8" thick. It's actually more heavy duty than most in that respect. The sash liner is better than it would appear too. For wood windows, the nicest looking sash liners are actual wood, and Pella, Marvin, Kolbe, Weathershield, etc. are all starting to offer them now. Perform great, look great. Vinyl sash liners on a wood double hung typically have a squishy foam behind the liner that presses the liner against the sashes; Proline uses a steel tension bar behind the liners instead because the foam gradually loses some of its tension over the years as it compresses and ages. It uses a warm edge spacer instead of an aluminum spacer. They include labor in their warranty which is not usually done in the wood window industry. The warranty goes with the home, not the owner, so it transfers to whomever owns the home without doing any paperwork. It's a popular choice with builders because it is competitively priced, labor is included in the warranty, and it performs well. Consumers Reports magazine picked Pella Proline as their recommended window in their last round of tests. In fact, it was in their top performance category and yet was (I think) the least expensive of all of the wood windows they tested. (It was disappointing to me and many others however that they only tested several vinyl windows but lots of wood windows; I would have loved to see them test Schuco, Simonton, Alside, etc.). Proline, however, is primarily a new construction window. It is not available in custom sizes, so it's potentially a bad choice for remodeling but great for new construction. Sorry to go off on a tangent on Proline, but I had to address your misconception about it.
Bottom line: since you are looking at a wood clad double glazed Low e window, if it's in the .4s I would be a bit concerned, but there are reasons as to why it might be that high. If you live in a moderate or warm climate that .44 U value might not be so bad, but if it gets cold where you live it is a greater cause for concern.
Re: Why is one window lower performaning than another?
What I was hoping to learn was how a window can have such a poor U value? All the windows I am looking at have Low E/ argon.
Jim
Tru_blue pretty much covered all the basics. I'm just going to throw in that the type of Low-E used in the glass will make a difference as well. Soft coat Low E will yeild a lower U-value than Pyrolytic (hard coat) Low-E.
Jim
Tru_blue pretty much covered all the basics. I'm just going to throw in that the type of Low-E used in the glass will make a difference as well. Soft coat Low E will yeild a lower U-value than Pyrolytic (hard coat) Low-E.
I wonder if people actually read a post before replying?
I found this site and hoped it was a alternative to a saleman's pitch or at least, hoping to avoid evangelical support for one product or another. I also hoped that including "Michigan" in my post, there wouldn't be confusion as to whether I live in a warm climate. Just in case anybody failed geography, look at a US map. There are some big blobs of blue in the upper middle. Those are called the Great Lakes. Michigan is between two of them. We get snow here and lots of cold weather.
Next, I mentioned the windows included in the contract price were LowE /Argon. If someone read it, perhaps it would preclude someone suggesting the low vaule was because they weren't LowE or argon.
As for grilles, I doubt very much a manufacturer'w web site would use a value from a window with grilles. Just in case anyone didnt' read that part, that is where I found the .44 value, not "on the windows I am using".
Lastly, I was hoping for factual information. As for Trublu's comments, it might be interesting to look at the same information I did on Pella's site, which lists the Proline sash at 1-5/8 not 1-3/4 as indicated by Tru. Also Tru, Michigan shouldn't be confused with a high altitude area.
There is no doubt in my mind that this window by Barber Ross is a piece of crap, but I'm just as convinced the Pella Proline is down the food chain quite a bit. True, it has good ratings, but that's not going to make it last any longer or hold up to opening/closing. On the other hand, I'd feel pretty comfortable that the Pella Architechs would hold up much better. Unfortunately, they would also hold up my pocketbook.
As for the house, I have decided against this builder based on his use of this window. If he is cutting corners on windows, what other things that I can't see are being shortchanged?
This puts me back in a search for a builder and plans to continue my own window research. There were a couple things I picked up here on the site, but for me, seeing is believing. Regardless of what builder I choose, I will call the shots on the windows and it will include looking at a window cut-away to see what I am getting. I will also price the difference between those that the builder suggests and my choice. If the builder tells me it is more, then I'll suspect something is fishy.
It will be interesting to come back to this site and compare notes and see if there still are evangelical posters who seem to own stock in one or another window manufacturer.
There will be some who think I am flaming the board. I'd ask them to read this again and review exactly what I have said. Then ask, did I say anything about anyone that wasn't substantiated by what was included in their own post?
Next, I mentioned the windows included in the contract price were LowE /Argon. If someone read it, perhaps it would preclude someone suggesting the low vaule was because they weren't LowE or argon.
As for grilles, I doubt very much a manufacturer'w web site would use a value from a window with grilles. Just in case anyone didnt' read that part, that is where I found the .44 value, not "on the windows I am using".
Lastly, I was hoping for factual information. As for Trublu's comments, it might be interesting to look at the same information I did on Pella's site, which lists the Proline sash at 1-5/8 not 1-3/4 as indicated by Tru. Also Tru, Michigan shouldn't be confused with a high altitude area.
There is no doubt in my mind that this window by Barber Ross is a piece of crap, but I'm just as convinced the Pella Proline is down the food chain quite a bit. True, it has good ratings, but that's not going to make it last any longer or hold up to opening/closing. On the other hand, I'd feel pretty comfortable that the Pella Architechs would hold up much better. Unfortunately, they would also hold up my pocketbook.
As for the house, I have decided against this builder based on his use of this window. If he is cutting corners on windows, what other things that I can't see are being shortchanged?
This puts me back in a search for a builder and plans to continue my own window research. There were a couple things I picked up here on the site, but for me, seeing is believing. Regardless of what builder I choose, I will call the shots on the windows and it will include looking at a window cut-away to see what I am getting. I will also price the difference between those that the builder suggests and my choice. If the builder tells me it is more, then I'll suspect something is fishy.
It will be interesting to come back to this site and compare notes and see if there still are evangelical posters who seem to own stock in one or another window manufacturer.
There will be some who think I am flaming the board. I'd ask them to read this again and review exactly what I have said. Then ask, did I say anything about anyone that wasn't substantiated by what was included in their own post?
reply
Jimranger
I could very easliy provide you with more information than you have requested and verifiably more than you could get from almost any engineer, contractor, building inspector, manufacturer or government agency. However, I won't give you squat at this point. Others have offered information freely and you chose to come back as though you have it all figured out and include your sarcasm. Why do you post then? Many cut and paste general information as they are more computer literate than others, but they still attempt to help. Tru_blu listed some legitimate items that can affect a U-factor... it's not sales... it's science! As you stated, you will look at what you are getting... but you have no clue what you will be looking at.
Call your shots about windows on your own, and when you do, come back and post them. I'll wager that you make atleast three important mistakes. Let's see if I am right. In the meantime, atleast have the freakin' decency to thank those that have posted in response to your requests! This is a free service!!! If you wish to use it to claim rights as a poster or declare your intellectual superiority, that's something I can help you adjust and bring into proper perspective.
When asking for help, you really shouldn't bite the hands feeding you.
I could very easliy provide you with more information than you have requested and verifiably more than you could get from almost any engineer, contractor, building inspector, manufacturer or government agency. However, I won't give you squat at this point. Others have offered information freely and you chose to come back as though you have it all figured out and include your sarcasm. Why do you post then? Many cut and paste general information as they are more computer literate than others, but they still attempt to help. Tru_blu listed some legitimate items that can affect a U-factor... it's not sales... it's science! As you stated, you will look at what you are getting... but you have no clue what you will be looking at.
Call your shots about windows on your own, and when you do, come back and post them. I'll wager that you make atleast three important mistakes. Let's see if I am right. In the meantime, atleast have the freakin' decency to thank those that have posted in response to your requests! This is a free service!!! If you wish to use it to claim rights as a poster or declare your intellectual superiority, that's something I can help you adjust and bring into proper perspective.
When asking for help, you really shouldn't bite the hands feeding you.
Very entertaining
Jim your latest post was very entertaining but also very arrogant and is in need of a correction or two. I offer this in hope that your reasoning is not so clouded that you incapable of processing this information (plus, it adds to the entainment value of this thread). For what it's worth, here goes:
". . . hoping to avoid evangelical support for one product or another."
Do you think we're a good-old-boys club, protecting "our own?" Look at the comments regarding Barber and Ross Windows: "That U-factor is terrible, based on that I assume the window is of very low quality." (Windowguru); "look pretty anemic, especially on the doublehungs. I too suspect they are a lower priced builders unit." (Window4U); "That U-Value does seem very bad. . . . You may not need a U-Value as low as .14 uf you live in CA." (USmarine); "if it's in the .4s I would be a bit concerned . . . but if it gets cold where you live it is a greater cause for concern." (tru_blue).
"I also hoped that including "Michigan" in my post . . "
LOL you did not include "Michigan" in your post. That would have changed the answers as it would relate to your situation. An no fair editing it now and including it.
"Just in case anybody failed geography . . . There are some big blobs of blue . . . We get snow here and lots of cold weather."
You look pretty silly. And see previous comment.
" . . . included in the contract price were LowE /Argon. If someone read it, perhaps it would preclude someone suggesting the low vaule was because they weren't LowE or argon."
Yes, I read that Jim. But the reason I mentioned that perhaps you didn't have the argon is because it is entirely possible that you ASSUMED that you had argon when in fact you just might not have it. It's reasonable to assume. I tried to help you in case you were not getting what you thought you were getting. Some companies will bid Low E with or without argon - just making sure you were getting it all. Is that a bad thing?
"As for grilles, I doubt very much a manufacturer'w web site would use a value from a window with grilles."
Yes, they would, and they do. You're wrong again. It's a fact. You wanted possible explanations as to why the U value would be so high. I gave you reasons, that is one of them. That is why I included it. I'm glad I did too; others who read this post in the future will have a more complete explanation as to how U value is affected by other variables. It's not just about you. And there are many many manufacturers that will report U values with and without grilles. It makes a difference. You can see the differences at the NFRC site.
"I was hoping for factual information."
You asked for it, you got it. I gave you six reasons why the U value might be higher than expected. Six reasons that you would not easily find listed together at any website. DWS gave you a 7th reason (I didn't mention that one because Barber-Ross mentioned softcoat at their website). I also challenged and corrected your erroneous statements about Proline, since you brought it up. I gave specific examples. Facts.
"Proline sash at 1-5/8 not 1-3/4 as indicated by Tru"
Got me there, so sorry. The Pella Renovations replacement double hungs are 1-3/4"; the Prolines are indeed 1-5/8". The principle remains the same - about 90% of the wood sashes out there are only 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" (a pair of 1-3/8" sashes makes a pocket of 3-1/4" which is what the replacement industry works with), the Proline is thicker than normal.
" . . but I'm just as convinced the Pella Proline is down the food chain quite a bit."
You seem obsessed with facts, but when given to you, (not only on Proline but also on U Value variables), it's as if you didn't even read them. Facts are facts whether you like them or not; whether you choose to believe them or not.
"As for the house, I have decided against this builder."
I'm glad for both of you. It seems as if you two would not get along.
"And plans to continue my own window research."
You have an interesting way of researching. Ask questions, ignore the answers, and insult the people who try to help you. If you come back to this site for "research" you might want to use a new user name.
"I will also price the difference between those that the builder suggests and my choice."
Good idea. Seemingly the first thing you've said that makes sense.
"It will be interesting to come back to this site and compare notes and see if there still are evangelical posters. . ."
Again with the chip on your shoulder. Nobody really defended Barber & Ross, and I simply corrected your misrepresentations about Proline. If you look at my previous posts (60something and counting), this is the first time I have defended Proline, and only directly because you gave bad information. In the past I have defended other brands and types of windows as well. I don't know what your definition of an evangelical poster is, never heard the term before, but to me that would mean someone who doesn't really attempt to listen to a person's situation, instead stating "Buy my product" for any and all situations.
"Michigan shouldn't be confused with a high altitude area."
I think the key word here is "confused."
Jim, I hope you find what you're looking for.
". . . hoping to avoid evangelical support for one product or another."
Do you think we're a good-old-boys club, protecting "our own?" Look at the comments regarding Barber and Ross Windows: "That U-factor is terrible, based on that I assume the window is of very low quality." (Windowguru); "look pretty anemic, especially on the doublehungs. I too suspect they are a lower priced builders unit." (Window4U); "That U-Value does seem very bad. . . . You may not need a U-Value as low as .14 uf you live in CA." (USmarine); "if it's in the .4s I would be a bit concerned . . . but if it gets cold where you live it is a greater cause for concern." (tru_blue).
"I also hoped that including "Michigan" in my post . . "
LOL you did not include "Michigan" in your post. That would have changed the answers as it would relate to your situation. An no fair editing it now and including it.
"Just in case anybody failed geography . . . There are some big blobs of blue . . . We get snow here and lots of cold weather."
You look pretty silly. And see previous comment.
" . . . included in the contract price were LowE /Argon. If someone read it, perhaps it would preclude someone suggesting the low vaule was because they weren't LowE or argon."
Yes, I read that Jim. But the reason I mentioned that perhaps you didn't have the argon is because it is entirely possible that you ASSUMED that you had argon when in fact you just might not have it. It's reasonable to assume. I tried to help you in case you were not getting what you thought you were getting. Some companies will bid Low E with or without argon - just making sure you were getting it all. Is that a bad thing?
"As for grilles, I doubt very much a manufacturer'w web site would use a value from a window with grilles."
Yes, they would, and they do. You're wrong again. It's a fact. You wanted possible explanations as to why the U value would be so high. I gave you reasons, that is one of them. That is why I included it. I'm glad I did too; others who read this post in the future will have a more complete explanation as to how U value is affected by other variables. It's not just about you. And there are many many manufacturers that will report U values with and without grilles. It makes a difference. You can see the differences at the NFRC site.
"I was hoping for factual information."
You asked for it, you got it. I gave you six reasons why the U value might be higher than expected. Six reasons that you would not easily find listed together at any website. DWS gave you a 7th reason (I didn't mention that one because Barber-Ross mentioned softcoat at their website). I also challenged and corrected your erroneous statements about Proline, since you brought it up. I gave specific examples. Facts.
"Proline sash at 1-5/8 not 1-3/4 as indicated by Tru"
Got me there, so sorry. The Pella Renovations replacement double hungs are 1-3/4"; the Prolines are indeed 1-5/8". The principle remains the same - about 90% of the wood sashes out there are only 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" (a pair of 1-3/8" sashes makes a pocket of 3-1/4" which is what the replacement industry works with), the Proline is thicker than normal.
" . . but I'm just as convinced the Pella Proline is down the food chain quite a bit."
You seem obsessed with facts, but when given to you, (not only on Proline but also on U Value variables), it's as if you didn't even read them. Facts are facts whether you like them or not; whether you choose to believe them or not.
"As for the house, I have decided against this builder."
I'm glad for both of you. It seems as if you two would not get along.
"And plans to continue my own window research."
You have an interesting way of researching. Ask questions, ignore the answers, and insult the people who try to help you. If you come back to this site for "research" you might want to use a new user name.
"I will also price the difference between those that the builder suggests and my choice."
Good idea. Seemingly the first thing you've said that makes sense.
"It will be interesting to come back to this site and compare notes and see if there still are evangelical posters. . ."
Again with the chip on your shoulder. Nobody really defended Barber & Ross, and I simply corrected your misrepresentations about Proline. If you look at my previous posts (60something and counting), this is the first time I have defended Proline, and only directly because you gave bad information. In the past I have defended other brands and types of windows as well. I don't know what your definition of an evangelical poster is, never heard the term before, but to me that would mean someone who doesn't really attempt to listen to a person's situation, instead stating "Buy my product" for any and all situations.
"Michigan shouldn't be confused with a high altitude area."
I think the key word here is "confused."
Jim, I hope you find what you're looking for.