How much difference is there between regular virgin vinyl and the uPVC. Stanek windows says their uPVC is better because it doesn't expand and contract as much as virgin vinyl.
And how can you tell what is a good vinyl, they all say they use the good stuff. Are there things to look for that help to tell a good vinyl from a cheap vinyl?
Another question, how much value is there in full metal reinforcement in the sashes? Does it add to the structural integrity? It seems to me that it would be a cold conductor.
Thanks for the help.
Dennis
Regular Vinyl verses uPVC
Reply
Dennis
UPVC and Virgin vinyl describe two different things and can both be found in some products. UPVC is unplasticized pvc, meaning, it hasn't been softened for flexibility. Plasticized pvc is made soft and flexible for uses like garden hoses and dashboards of cars. Virtually every vinyl window on the market is UPVC. Virgin simply stands for vinyl that has not been reground or reprocessed. Ideally, you want both. Knowing this now, I'm thinking your Stanek rep shot himself in the arse by admitting that their window is not virgin vinyl and is atleast in part made from recycled material. Not the best sales presentation.
"Another question, how much value is there in full metal reinforcement in the sashes? Does it add to the structural integrity? It seems to me that it would be a cold conductor."
Structural reinforcement is indeed a plus and is not a conductor if it's surrounded by non-conductors. Think of electrical wiring coated with vinyl... it doesn't conduct through.
Fun fact: Have you ever noticed that metals tend to feel cold? Believe it or not, they are not colder! They only feel colder because they conduct heat away from your hand. You perceive the heat that is leaving your hand as cold. Cold doesn't conduct because it doesn't exist in physics... it is simply a lack or loss of heat energy. So the next time you feel cold glass on windows in the winter, think about this, they are not letting cold in, but letting heat out.
Cool way to help explain this to kids or clients. Using an infrared thermometer, take a measurement of a doorknob and a wood interior door. They will be equal. Now touch both... the knob will feel cold. After holding the knob for 5 seconds, measure both again. The knob will now be warmer than the door as it absorbed heat from you but will still feel colder than the door as the metal will draw heat away from your hand faster than the wood. This also a fun way to explain metal window spacers too. OK... Mr. Wizard is ready for golf now... if I could only figure out velocity and trajectory. Sheesh.
UPVC and Virgin vinyl describe two different things and can both be found in some products. UPVC is unplasticized pvc, meaning, it hasn't been softened for flexibility. Plasticized pvc is made soft and flexible for uses like garden hoses and dashboards of cars. Virtually every vinyl window on the market is UPVC. Virgin simply stands for vinyl that has not been reground or reprocessed. Ideally, you want both. Knowing this now, I'm thinking your Stanek rep shot himself in the arse by admitting that their window is not virgin vinyl and is atleast in part made from recycled material. Not the best sales presentation.
"Another question, how much value is there in full metal reinforcement in the sashes? Does it add to the structural integrity? It seems to me that it would be a cold conductor."
Structural reinforcement is indeed a plus and is not a conductor if it's surrounded by non-conductors. Think of electrical wiring coated with vinyl... it doesn't conduct through.
Fun fact: Have you ever noticed that metals tend to feel cold? Believe it or not, they are not colder! They only feel colder because they conduct heat away from your hand. You perceive the heat that is leaving your hand as cold. Cold doesn't conduct because it doesn't exist in physics... it is simply a lack or loss of heat energy. So the next time you feel cold glass on windows in the winter, think about this, they are not letting cold in, but letting heat out.
Cool way to help explain this to kids or clients. Using an infrared thermometer, take a measurement of a doorknob and a wood interior door. They will be equal. Now touch both... the knob will feel cold. After holding the knob for 5 seconds, measure both again. The knob will now be warmer than the door as it absorbed heat from you but will still feel colder than the door as the metal will draw heat away from your hand faster than the wood. This also a fun way to explain metal window spacers too. OK... Mr. Wizard is ready for golf now... if I could only figure out velocity and trajectory. Sheesh.
Re: Reply
Don't let anyone fool you. The metal reinforcements are conductors
[quote="FenEx"]Dennis
"Another question, how much value is there in full metal reinforcement in the sashes? Does it add to the structural integrity? It seems to me that it would be a cold conductor."
Structural reinforcement is indeed a plus and is not a conductor if it's surrounded by non-conductors. Think of electrical wiring coated with vinyl... it doesn't conduct through.
.
[quote="FenEx"]Dennis
"Another question, how much value is there in full metal reinforcement in the sashes? Does it add to the structural integrity? It seems to me that it would be a cold conductor."
Structural reinforcement is indeed a plus and is not a conductor if it's surrounded by non-conductors. Think of electrical wiring coated with vinyl... it doesn't conduct through.
.
Manufacturer of America's highest rated windows
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researcher
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:39 am
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researcher
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:39 am
The steel spacers look non conductive when compared to the old aluminum spacer and is a big improvement ; but when compared to non metallic spacers like Super Spacer and TPS the steel spacer begins to look like a conductor.
All this would would be much clearer to the readers if data was posted. What are the test results? What are the actual temperature differences?
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crankthisout
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:42 pm
DennisS,
It's true that most manufacturers use good vinyl these days. You'll notice some have a blueish color to them; which for most is unappealing.
Strength of a window is important for long term performance. This means locks which align properly over time, weatherstripping which maintains contact with the frame resulting in a tight fit. Lastly, in terms of operability, you want your windows to glide smoothly years down the road and not "stick". The main culprit to all these concerns for wood and vinyl windows is WARPING AND SAGGING. If you hear a window won't warp or sag, ASK TO SEE THAT GUARANTEE IN WRITING.
There are different ways manufacturers will design their products usually based on cost. Vinyl is paid per pound from the extruder. So, the more chambers you see and the thicker these chamber walls are, the more cost incurred by the manufacturer. This in turn leads to a more solid window.
When a manufacturer gets these extrusions from their vinyl supplier they are all hollow inside. This gives the manufacturer the ability to do as it pleases. They can simply:
1. Leave these parts hallow (cheapest and less strength)
2. Foam fill (Adds slightly to energy efficiency but nothing for strength)
3. Reinforce at the meeting rail with aluminum inserts (Adds little for strength and aluminum is a super-conductor)
4. Reinforce with fiberglass inserts (better strength than aluminum and more efficient)
5. Reinforce all 4 sides of frame and sash with 16-guage galvanized steel profiles (Maximum strength and slightly less efficient)
Ask the salesman for their Design Pressure test score. It's a third party certification number which tells you how well each window can withstand wind, water, air, and forced entry. The higher the number, the better the window performs structurally (DEPENDANT ON THE SIZE TESTED). Some will say they have a high number but test a much smaller window.
Lets compare a Stanek steel-reinforced window with a Champion foam filled window with the same glass.
If you compare:
Champion foam filled Double-hung window with Low-E/Argon R-4 glass
Overall U-Value of .29
Design Pressure test score = 30 (44x60)
Stanek Steel Reinforced Double-hung window with Low-E/Argon R-4 glass
Overall U-Value of .31
Design Pressure test score = 60 (46x70)
So while the Champion window may initially be slightly more efficient with foam, it's only two tenths of a percent. Compare the DP numbers and your comparing Arnold Swartzenegger to Richard Simmons.
There is a reason why Stanek covers Warping & Sagging and many windows do not.
It's true that most manufacturers use good vinyl these days. You'll notice some have a blueish color to them; which for most is unappealing.
Strength of a window is important for long term performance. This means locks which align properly over time, weatherstripping which maintains contact with the frame resulting in a tight fit. Lastly, in terms of operability, you want your windows to glide smoothly years down the road and not "stick". The main culprit to all these concerns for wood and vinyl windows is WARPING AND SAGGING. If you hear a window won't warp or sag, ASK TO SEE THAT GUARANTEE IN WRITING.
There are different ways manufacturers will design their products usually based on cost. Vinyl is paid per pound from the extruder. So, the more chambers you see and the thicker these chamber walls are, the more cost incurred by the manufacturer. This in turn leads to a more solid window.
When a manufacturer gets these extrusions from their vinyl supplier they are all hollow inside. This gives the manufacturer the ability to do as it pleases. They can simply:
1. Leave these parts hallow (cheapest and less strength)
2. Foam fill (Adds slightly to energy efficiency but nothing for strength)
3. Reinforce at the meeting rail with aluminum inserts (Adds little for strength and aluminum is a super-conductor)
4. Reinforce with fiberglass inserts (better strength than aluminum and more efficient)
5. Reinforce all 4 sides of frame and sash with 16-guage galvanized steel profiles (Maximum strength and slightly less efficient)
Ask the salesman for their Design Pressure test score. It's a third party certification number which tells you how well each window can withstand wind, water, air, and forced entry. The higher the number, the better the window performs structurally (DEPENDANT ON THE SIZE TESTED). Some will say they have a high number but test a much smaller window.
Lets compare a Stanek steel-reinforced window with a Champion foam filled window with the same glass.
If you compare:
Champion foam filled Double-hung window with Low-E/Argon R-4 glass
Overall U-Value of .29
Design Pressure test score = 30 (44x60)
Stanek Steel Reinforced Double-hung window with Low-E/Argon R-4 glass
Overall U-Value of .31
Design Pressure test score = 60 (46x70)
So while the Champion window may initially be slightly more efficient with foam, it's only two tenths of a percent. Compare the DP numbers and your comparing Arnold Swartzenegger to Richard Simmons.
There is a reason why Stanek covers Warping & Sagging and many windows do not.
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windowmann2000
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm
I'll take the Stanek window ten out of ten times over the Champion. Champion windows should be priced at $375 per installed, that's all their worth. Stanek makes a very nice product and should be included with the best. Their probably aren't more than thirty windows out there that are of this quality in vinyl.
The original post asked about upvc and as Fenex stated most windows today are upvc but how much upvc does make the difference. The average exterior wall of our most popular window is .082m and with reinforcing we can get a dp up to 60. But we pretty much take the std 45 dp as that will stand anything the Midwest will throw at it, and in a white double hung that means pretty much any size for around $400 or less with low-e and argon and a unit u of .28. and an air test of .08. A good window for a good price=value.
Stanek would have a little better u but because it has more frame than some, less glass means higher u as the glass has more insulation value than frame. A good example is Schuco, the way it's built you'd think no one would beat their test but because of a higher % of frame their u is not quite as low as others, and not because it's any less efficient and in fact is probably is more energy efficient because of lower amounts of cold air being let in the winter time.
Thicker ext walls usually mean a better window.
The original post asked about upvc and as Fenex stated most windows today are upvc but how much upvc does make the difference. The average exterior wall of our most popular window is .082m and with reinforcing we can get a dp up to 60. But we pretty much take the std 45 dp as that will stand anything the Midwest will throw at it, and in a white double hung that means pretty much any size for around $400 or less with low-e and argon and a unit u of .28. and an air test of .08. A good window for a good price=value.
Stanek would have a little better u but because it has more frame than some, less glass means higher u as the glass has more insulation value than frame. A good example is Schuco, the way it's built you'd think no one would beat their test but because of a higher % of frame their u is not quite as low as others, and not because it's any less efficient and in fact is probably is more energy efficient because of lower amounts of cold air being let in the winter time.
Thicker ext walls usually mean a better window.
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InfoSponge
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 6:07 am
There are fairly clear u-factor benefits to SuperSpacer/TPS (non-metallic) over Intercept (stainless steel/tin). For example, compare equivalent windows here for the Simonton 9800, where the only difference is the spacer:researcher wrote:All this would would be much clearer to the readers if data was posted.
http://www.simonton.com/Homeowner/produ ... duct_id=92
The SuperSpacer window will generally have a u-factor that is about .02 lower than the same window with an Intercept spacer.
Schuco
More vinyl is better? Tell that to someone who is replacing a less 36 inch or less wide window(probably 90 percent of the double hung windows in American Homes today) with a Schuco and get 9 inches of vinyl added in to their existing viewing space. Just what I want to look at when I look out at my beautiful yard through my new replacement windows. White Vinyl. And anyone that puts aluminum reinforcement in their windows is old school. That was done to support the weak vinyl chambers or thin thickness of the extrusion. Old time windows like Thermal Gard and Bristol used this pitch of strength because their vinyl was so weak. If the vinyl is made correctly .80 thickness or higher with multi chamber design, no reinforcement is needed. A dp 30 equates to about 85 to 90 mile an hour winds. And where will we see that type of MPH? Maybe some coastal areas but inland, not happening. While I'm out buying my new aluminum or metal reinforced vinyl replacement windows, I might stop by Circuit City to buy that new black and white TV they are advertising.
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Window4U (IL)
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- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
Re: Schuco
Since I am a Schuco dealer I would appreciate some accuracy if you are going to use them as an example. They do not add 9 inches of vinyl to the viewing space, not even close.Amadauss wrote:More vinyl is better? Tell that to someone who is replacing a less 36 inch or less wide window(probably 90 percent of the double hung windows in American Homes today) with a Schuco and get 9 inches of vinyl added in to their existing viewing space.
I put up a series of photos of different windows for comparison a while back to try and dispell this untruth that they are bigger framed than most other windows. Here it is again. Pay attention to both the dimension to the glass as well as the dimension to the where the frame meets the sash.
The only one that is smaller in real life is the Sunrise because of uneven sight lines and a thin center rail and sill. Other than that one, most brands are virtually identical to Schuco size-wise.
That all said, I would prefer thinner windows no matter the brand if it were possible, but the need for strength and the fact most replacement windows have step jambs for improved air tightness makes this not realistic in most windows.
Re: Schuco
I also must disagree here. We recently had 18 of our windows replaced, of those 18, 9 of them were casements that were 26" wide before replacement. After replacement, they are 25" wide, and you can barely tell anything changed. This was with the "extra 9" of vinyl" Schuco windows. Not the best pic I have (I cant find the links Ive posted before), but this is one of the smaller casements, I havent added the shoe molding around the gap yet: http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/5a5ca5a6e3.jpgAmadauss wrote:More vinyl is better? Tell that to someone who is replacing a less 36 inch or less wide window(probably 90 percent of the double hung windows in American Homes today) with a Schuco and get 9 inches of vinyl added in to their existing viewing space.
The Andersen casements that were there before it may have been 1" or so wider, but I most certainly did not lose 9" (if I did the glass area would only be about 16" wide).
I must admit, some of it is how the windows are measured for. Our installer actually measured from outside, because my existing Andersens were "odd" (basically the frames were wider outside than inside because of the way the hardware mounted). Measuring the outside dimensions gave him a better idea of the existing rough opening, so he sized the windows more to the rough opening than anything else (the casement in the picture is 1 of 2 that slid right into the existing jambs......the other 7 casements were complete tearouts down to the rough opening.......in those cases I lost even less glass space, but for all intents and purposes Ill call it 1" lost).
-Chris
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windowmann2000
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- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm
Amadauss, I don't know where your locacted but some where way out in left field is my guess. The metal reinforcing in most vinyl windows is a simple reinforcing step and does very little to change the overall u value, but does add rigidity and strength. Companies like bristol tied it into a corner gusset system because the windows were not all welded.
Companies like Schuco, european in design usually do have a bulkier look to them, but as you can see in the Marvin replacement picture not that much different than most replacements and the european's build them to last many generations.
Let me make a wild guess, would you suggest something like a Renewal ?
If so, it would be nice if you'd take that overprice piece of crap to left field with you and stay there.
Companies like Schuco, european in design usually do have a bulkier look to them, but as you can see in the Marvin replacement picture not that much different than most replacements and the european's build them to last many generations.
Let me make a wild guess, would you suggest something like a Renewal ?
If so, it would be nice if you'd take that overprice piece of crap to left field with you and stay there.
Reply
"A dp 30 equates to about 85 to 90 mile an hour winds. And where will we see that type of MPH? "
That DP rating is only stating that the windows won't blow through your living room at higher winds, it does not include frame deflection as in commercially rated units. Deflection can destroy residential U-factors as well as air and water infiltration... which are only tested at 25mph (that of a light storm). The higher DP ratings of reinforced frames will provide more rigidity and considerably less deflection... and thus better performance against Mother nature year round. Oh... and a conductive material that is sufficiently insulated by a non-conductive material such as wiring or a pot handle, becomes a moot point.
That DP rating is only stating that the windows won't blow through your living room at higher winds, it does not include frame deflection as in commercially rated units. Deflection can destroy residential U-factors as well as air and water infiltration... which are only tested at 25mph (that of a light storm). The higher DP ratings of reinforced frames will provide more rigidity and considerably less deflection... and thus better performance against Mother nature year round. Oh... and a conductive material that is sufficiently insulated by a non-conductive material such as wiring or a pot handle, becomes a moot point.