Hello,
We just attended the Vacaville Home Show (Northern California) and found many representatives from Simonton. We liked the Milgard, but many said the pricing for Milgard was more with the same exact product manufacturer as Simonton and Comfort Design. I can't seem to find much information of pros/cons for Comfort Design on the web. Has anyone heard of them?
I have scheduled many companies to come in and give me an estimate, but I feel like the sales pitch is a little much and just want the truth! The pricing seems to be between $8k - $10k.
We only plan on being in our house for another 10 years. Our house is 17 years old and gets full sun. I was leaning towards vinyl, but after reading your discussion board, I am second guessing the vinyl. It was 107 this week-end. We have 14 windows and a slider door to replace. Any recommendations would be great.
Milgard, Simonton or Comfort Design
I would lean toward the Milgard out of the three choices. I am very familiar with the Simonton and the Milgard in the Vacaville area. Who are the Milgard and SImonton dealers you are looking at right now? That could be the make or break for you on the installation and price.
Comfort Design is a small but good company out of Washington State. I do not have anything bad or good to say. Do not see much of them here in California.
Comfort Design is a small but good company out of Washington State. I do not have anything bad or good to say. Do not see much of them here in California.
Thank you for your quick reply.
The Vendors I have contacted for estimates are:
View Masters (Milgard) - $8400
PF Reilly Windows (Simonton) - $10,844
American Energy Savers (Milgard) - Appointment Today
Tri-City Glass (Milgard) - Appointment Today
Do you have any other suggestions for companies w/ a good reputation? Have you heard anything negative about the noted Vendors?
Should I worry about the vinyl and warping with full sun?
My other question: We are also having our roof done. Does matter whether the roof is done before/after the windows? Which is better?
The Vendors I have contacted for estimates are:
View Masters (Milgard) - $8400
PF Reilly Windows (Simonton) - $10,844
American Energy Savers (Milgard) - Appointment Today
Tri-City Glass (Milgard) - Appointment Today
Do you have any other suggestions for companies w/ a good reputation? Have you heard anything negative about the noted Vendors?
Should I worry about the vinyl and warping with full sun?
My other question: We are also having our roof done. Does matter whether the roof is done before/after the windows? Which is better?
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FiberglassVinyl
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:09 pm
I am reviving this thread because I am now considering these three manufacturers (Milgard, Simonton, Comfort Design) for vinyl replacement windows. I originated the 'Fiberglass vs. Vinyl Replacement Windows' thread when debating between Milgard vinyl and fiberglass windows. After talking to a technical support person at one of their factories, I came away with a lesser opinion of Milgard and decided to investigate alternative manufacturers. I initially focused on Milgard because their advertising makes them a well-known brand name and virtually every window/glass company in Northern California carries them.
I have found that despite a generally good reputation, Milgard's thermal performance and components are just mediocre, and their price can be somewhat higher than better performing windows. Milgard uses an Intercept spacer with a single butyl seal. They dual seal commercial windows and dual seal is also available as an extra cost option on residential windows. A plus is that they do edge deletion on Lo-E glass. I would not invest in an argon fill with this spacer/seal combination (agree?). Their U-values are not great either (Cardinal 272 Lo-E): 0.38 for a horizontal slider; 0.36 for a casement; 0.35 for a picture window. Argon brings each down by 0.03 (0.04 for PW), but why get argon if the seal won't last all that long? Even the Milgard tech guy said argon will leak out over time; he couldn't quote me on seal failure rates as I've seen for Super Spacer, TPS, and XL-Edge (they're all very low). Milgard has a lifetime warranty, although what it covers is really subject to interpretation as it just states defects in materials and workmanship at manufacture. The tech guy said it includes replacing fogged glass. They basically do not warranty windows installed with minimal expansion foam. The tech guy said the right foam applied properly is fine, but Milgard can't control either of those parameters so they will not cover its use. He did imply a problem unrelated to the use of foam would be covered, although I doubt they would cover any problem if they discover that foam was used. I thought the use of foam would be far superior to backer rod, especially in providing additional insulation between my old steel window frames and the interior vinyl. It also should do a better job of sealing out air infiltration.
Simonton on the other hand offers the Power Seal Spacer System standard (Intercept spacer dual-sealed with urethane adhesive and a hot melt butyl seal along with an additional desiccant matrix within the spacer cavity), and they offer Super Spacer as an option (spacer sealed to the edge of the glass and then sealed with butyl). Especially with the Super Spacer, I would consider investing in argon fill. Thermal performance (U-value) is better too (Impressions 7300 with Intercept/SS): 0.34/0.33 for a horizontal slider; 0.32/0.31 for a casement; 0.33/0.34 for a picture window. Argon brings each down by 0.03 to 0.05. Super Spacer had less effect on U-value than I thought it would. Simonton's web site wasn't too clear on specifiying glass options in their performance data, so I chose Lo-E (sc) clear with a 0.72 center-of-window VT as equivalent to Cardinal 272 (72 means 72% VT). Simonton exterior vinyl thickness is 0.072-0.08" which gives their windows a depth on 2-7/8" compared to 3-3/8" for Milgard Classic (not sure on Milgard's vinyl thickness). Simonton's warranty is lifetime and explicitly covers the various components (vinyl, hardware, screens, and glass) against specific, yet broad defects that can occur with use, age and weathering. I don't know what their policy is on using foam in installation. I haven't priced Simonton, so I don't know if they cost more or less than Milgard.
Comfort Design's website does not provide as much detailed information as Milgard's and Simonton's. But I know Comfort Design uses Super Spacer and Cardinal LoE2-170 glass (I think this has been renamed 270 by Cardinal, so it's the same as Milgard's glass). Their U-values are really low 0.28-0.32, but they do not state whether they are whole-window values or whether they are for argon fill. They too have a lifetime warranty although it's worded more like Milgard's warranty. I have priced Comfort Design and it was about 10% cheaper than the Milgard Classic quote I received from a different window company.
So are Simonton and Comfort Design equal to or better than Milgard? To me, that appears to be the case, but I'm interested in the opinion of those in the industry with either personal experience with these manufacturers or opinions based on the data I've presented. I read on this forum that one can't judge a manufacturer solely on thermal performance numbers since Lo-E and argon is the great equalizer among the competitors. Quality and customer service still counts. But even with Milgard's fine reputation, I think I may find better performance and equal or better quality and warranties with other manufacturers. What do you all think? earwax, I am also curious what you considered when recommending Milgard over Simonton and Comfort Design? Thanks.
I have found that despite a generally good reputation, Milgard's thermal performance and components are just mediocre, and their price can be somewhat higher than better performing windows. Milgard uses an Intercept spacer with a single butyl seal. They dual seal commercial windows and dual seal is also available as an extra cost option on residential windows. A plus is that they do edge deletion on Lo-E glass. I would not invest in an argon fill with this spacer/seal combination (agree?). Their U-values are not great either (Cardinal 272 Lo-E): 0.38 for a horizontal slider; 0.36 for a casement; 0.35 for a picture window. Argon brings each down by 0.03 (0.04 for PW), but why get argon if the seal won't last all that long? Even the Milgard tech guy said argon will leak out over time; he couldn't quote me on seal failure rates as I've seen for Super Spacer, TPS, and XL-Edge (they're all very low). Milgard has a lifetime warranty, although what it covers is really subject to interpretation as it just states defects in materials and workmanship at manufacture. The tech guy said it includes replacing fogged glass. They basically do not warranty windows installed with minimal expansion foam. The tech guy said the right foam applied properly is fine, but Milgard can't control either of those parameters so they will not cover its use. He did imply a problem unrelated to the use of foam would be covered, although I doubt they would cover any problem if they discover that foam was used. I thought the use of foam would be far superior to backer rod, especially in providing additional insulation between my old steel window frames and the interior vinyl. It also should do a better job of sealing out air infiltration.
Simonton on the other hand offers the Power Seal Spacer System standard (Intercept spacer dual-sealed with urethane adhesive and a hot melt butyl seal along with an additional desiccant matrix within the spacer cavity), and they offer Super Spacer as an option (spacer sealed to the edge of the glass and then sealed with butyl). Especially with the Super Spacer, I would consider investing in argon fill. Thermal performance (U-value) is better too (Impressions 7300 with Intercept/SS): 0.34/0.33 for a horizontal slider; 0.32/0.31 for a casement; 0.33/0.34 for a picture window. Argon brings each down by 0.03 to 0.05. Super Spacer had less effect on U-value than I thought it would. Simonton's web site wasn't too clear on specifiying glass options in their performance data, so I chose Lo-E (sc) clear with a 0.72 center-of-window VT as equivalent to Cardinal 272 (72 means 72% VT). Simonton exterior vinyl thickness is 0.072-0.08" which gives their windows a depth on 2-7/8" compared to 3-3/8" for Milgard Classic (not sure on Milgard's vinyl thickness). Simonton's warranty is lifetime and explicitly covers the various components (vinyl, hardware, screens, and glass) against specific, yet broad defects that can occur with use, age and weathering. I don't know what their policy is on using foam in installation. I haven't priced Simonton, so I don't know if they cost more or less than Milgard.
Comfort Design's website does not provide as much detailed information as Milgard's and Simonton's. But I know Comfort Design uses Super Spacer and Cardinal LoE2-170 glass (I think this has been renamed 270 by Cardinal, so it's the same as Milgard's glass). Their U-values are really low 0.28-0.32, but they do not state whether they are whole-window values or whether they are for argon fill. They too have a lifetime warranty although it's worded more like Milgard's warranty. I have priced Comfort Design and it was about 10% cheaper than the Milgard Classic quote I received from a different window company.
So are Simonton and Comfort Design equal to or better than Milgard? To me, that appears to be the case, but I'm interested in the opinion of those in the industry with either personal experience with these manufacturers or opinions based on the data I've presented. I read on this forum that one can't judge a manufacturer solely on thermal performance numbers since Lo-E and argon is the great equalizer among the competitors. Quality and customer service still counts. But even with Milgard's fine reputation, I think I may find better performance and equal or better quality and warranties with other manufacturers. What do you all think? earwax, I am also curious what you considered when recommending Milgard over Simonton and Comfort Design? Thanks.
When I recommend Milgard, it is usaually becuase of their ease of use to the customer. ORdering, options, quality, lead times, and service.
Simonton in Vacaville has not always had a great reputation for quality and service. They have done great things in teh past year or two. They have a new General Manager there now as well. Simonton used to be only sold in a few glass shops and hard to find them. They are now in most major show rooms. Milgard, you can price shop them from now until the end of time. Everyone sells them and you should be able to buy them about 10-15 percent cheaper than Simonton.
As far as the question on warranty, I have never had them reject a warranty claim from a defective product personally.
Simonton in Vacaville has not always had a great reputation for quality and service. They have done great things in teh past year or two. They have a new General Manager there now as well. Simonton used to be only sold in a few glass shops and hard to find them. They are now in most major show rooms. Milgard, you can price shop them from now until the end of time. Everyone sells them and you should be able to buy them about 10-15 percent cheaper than Simonton.
As far as the question on warranty, I have never had them reject a warranty claim from a defective product personally.
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FiberglassVinyl
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Thank you earwax. It sounds like Simonton in Vacaville (where my windows would be manufactured since I'm in the South Bay) have improved a lot recently. Do you think their quality and service issues have been resolved enough that I would get good windows without undue delay or hassle? If so, their thermal specs, components, and warranty appear to exceed Milgard's in my layman's opinion. Do you agree?
Also, Comfort Design has one of their two offices in Vacaville as well:
871 Cotting Court, Suite C, Vacaville
California 95688
1-800-332-5787
You might want to check them out since they are nearby. Their performance specs, components, and warranty sound good too, although the specs on their website are sketchy. Thanks again for your help.
Any other opinions out there on my analysis or these companies?
Also, Comfort Design has one of their two offices in Vacaville as well:
871 Cotting Court, Suite C, Vacaville
California 95688
1-800-332-5787
You might want to check them out since they are nearby. Their performance specs, components, and warranty sound good too, although the specs on their website are sketchy. Thanks again for your help.
Any other opinions out there on my analysis or these companies?
I would not hesitate to order from the Vacaville plant right now. As far a Comfort Design, they are a small company that put a small office in California. They do not manufacture there. (At least they did not last year). Not to familiar with their product, because they are not a large player in the market and are hard to find in homes. (Might be a reason for that. I do not know.)