Full frame construction versus inserts?

[mybaby2028]

Can one the experts tell me, in as much detail as possible, the difference between an insert and a full frame construction? With customs, is one better than the other (pros/cons)? Is it normal to do a combination of the two when a home is getting multiple window openings done? Any information would be helpful.

[johnmr12]

I am a big believer in using inserts. Out west, we call it retrofitting. If done correctly, i feel the only disadvantage is a loss of opening space of about 2" on width and height. The advantages are many. The biggest advantage, in my opinion, is that using inserts allows the homeowner to do the job themselves. Tearing out an old window, installing a new one, and then repairing the damage done to the exterior material around each opening,requires much more skill than just inserting a new window in the opening, sealing and trimming. Now, if you're going to hire a contractor to do the job, and you can afford it, then why not have him do a complete tearout. He has to restore your homes interior and exterior to what it was before. It sounds like that's what you're doing, and the contractor is suggesting doing a combination? I really can't see why they would do both, not to mention you will have 2 different looks. That's my 2 cents worth.

[mybaby2028]

John,

I asked because I hired N.E. Sash (a Schuco dealer) to do a full frame construction on two picture windows (w/ casements) and a bay. Long story short, the dealer completely misrepresented the product and installation (same story from two different sales men during two different visits but now I realize they were lies). . .I didn't get the external grids I "ordered" only to find out it isn't even an option w/ Schucco. I was offered a "hush" deal - With winter fast approaching, knowing I'd need to wait the 2 months again to start with another company, and trying to avoid a lengthy legal battle, I took the price break.
N.E. Sash came and installed the two picture windows w/ casements while I was at work. I returned home to find inserts!!!!!!!!
I never would have even considered inserts as I was trying to maintain the look and size of the old (1890) wood windows but lose the maintainence. (There was much discussion with both salesmen about the existing trim because my fiance was worried about keep it original at first but then realized the benefits of all new construction.)
The old window trim is there and they just plunked in a window. . .The window comes out further than the existing trim on the inside and is pushed in four inches from the house on the outside. I also no longer have a window sill (which is needed as I have items that go there and it is a bed for cats on the second floor) because the window is sitting on it taking up all the space - It looks horrible! On top of that, the installers put a few scratches and a couple small gauges into my (newly refinished) floor and nicked the only visible part of the sills the window is sitting on.
Now, they are saying that they don't normally do full frame constructions!?! And, they can't/won't fix the problem with the windows (I haven't even attempted to address the floors yet). . .They won't do a full frame construction and say they can't push the window out so I have a sill and the window is flush to the house (like it was and all the other windows in the house are).
I have never been screwed so hard by a company (and we've had a lot of work done on this home) - I thought it was bad at first and it has gotten worse (which I didn't think could happen). This was a siginificant investment that I should only need once but now I think I will have to get these ripped out by another company and start all over anyway (so be out the $ paid to N.E. Sash plus what another company will ask for and all the lost time and energy) or be forced to tears everytime I look at the things. I thought I was at wits end before but now. . .Rediculous!

[Guy]

Hey Mybaby, My heart goes out to you! I'm so sorry to hear what your going through. Don't back down or hush up! You need to bring up the floor issue right away. The longer it sits the hotter you get and the harder it is to proove. That's why drop cloths are suppose to be down. This is a perfect example of paying for the best window on the market. Only to have it screwed up by installers or a salesman. I don't quite understand the issue about the frame coming in further. I can't figure that one out. The bay unit has to have a complete removal in order to work. If it was layed in over the old frame. That's a big No No. The entire existing window has to be stripped to the studs. Occasionally there is a botttom shelf built to slide it in on. The rest must still tie to the studs. The new one may have been mis-measured or that's their method of replacement. As for the replacement units in the other area. I personally would have recommended you use an insert in the area. It's the only way to keep your original look. I always tell my customers on this application they will loose some shelf space after the new ones are installed. We just finished a 100 unit retirement apartment complex. I was very detailed in telling the building owner this would happen with their windows. He didn't tell the tenants. I had more old ladies beating me with a broom than you could ever imagine! So I know how important this is to you. In your case it's attorney time. Get a real mean one that will go for the throat! Take a lot of pictures of all your problems right away. I would give the NE Sash one chance to make things right. Give them your time frame (Be Fare) and tell them if it's not repaired to your desire. Return your money or the attorney will come swinging. What ever you do. Don't pay them the remaining balance of the contract!
One other thing. Don't let this put a bad taste in your mouth about the window manufacturer. Your choice in windows was great. The company representing them was not. I've heard numerous complaints about them here. I will assure you they won't be selling that product much longer with a poor track record. I don't know if you have talked with FenX yet. He can hook you up with some VIP's at Schuco. These guys can make things work in your advantage in a big way. I'm also sure they can set you up with the proper people to correct the mistakes. Then you can feel the impact of the great windows you bought. I'm sure FenX will read this and follow up. If not email me and I'll get you his email.

Guy

[johnmr12]

Your experience is the exact reason why i encourage do it yourself homeowners to learn how to replace their own windows. Guy is 100% correct . It doesn't matter how great a product is if the people representing the product are sub par. If you have a written contract that states they were going to do complete replacements, and they did inserts, you can take them to small claims court without having to hire an expensive lawyer. But, you're limited to $5000 in small claims court. If you do go to small claims court, try to get your case heard by Judge Judy. By the time she got through with them, they will have wished they did the job over free of charge! I love that woman!

[mybaby2028]

Guy - Your ideas on the inserts make sense. I realize I somewhat mis-spoke in my post. . .I had said that I wouldn't have considered inserts because I wanted to maintain the look but, while that is true, my house is OLD and nothing is square, plumb, or level so although I wanted to maintain the look I wanted to ensure the final look wouldn't be that of replacement windows plunked into an old home so I wanted full frame construction even if that meant losing the original wood trim. I am surprised, though, that you would have recommended inserts as other company's that gave us bids did not (but recommended the full frame of course they could have been looking to up their commissions )
To explain what I mean by the windows being pushed in from the outside is that the old windows were flush with the outside (siding) of the house but the new windows are sunken in almost 4 inches. This is because (so it has been explained) the new windows are sitting on the sills of the previous windows and since the new windows are bigger (depth) than the previous ones they have to sit further in. They can't move the windows out at all because there is nothing for them to hold on to/sit on.?. And, the four inches was lost on the inside. (Again, why I wanted full frame constuctions as I would have hoped to avoid these sorts of issues).

The installers did some of the bay on Friday. They worked in 50 mph gusts, froze, and worked in darkness (we tried to help by setting up a flood light). . .It is in but not trimmed out or any of that (so we can feel the air from outside - they say that will be taken care of). It was, from what I can tell, a full construction (which is where I talked of the combo with the full frame construct on the bay and the inserts for the other two huge windows). Though it isn't done yet, I am not unhappy with what has been done with the bay so far. . .That is the best outcome of the wondows thus far.
We've had the opportunity to talk with the istallers at lenth on Friday and I really think that the issue is something to do with N.E. Sash and the installers are actually doing what they are supossed to because that is what they were told to by their employer/N.E. Sash. But, maybe I am just naive - We know they enjoy working there and they are paid well anyway
We spoke with the VP (who is the brother of the owner) and the installation manager about the inserts and issues but didn't get anything except arguements and more anger. But, the installers have come up with an idea on building a new sill when they come back Tuesday so I will have to see how that comes out. Assuming the "rebuilt" sill is doable and acceptable, I am not sure what steps to take from there (being that the installers are trying to help rectify some of the issues).

[Guy]

If they are doing a full frame installation the old sill should be gone. I guess I'm lost or don't understand the installation they are doing. When you replace the entire unit the whole frame comes out. The new frame should come with a nailing fin to attach the window. The existing opening should have been stripped down to the studs. I don't know if it's something I'm missing or a measuring error on their part. The new window should nail to the exterior wall with out resting on anything. You should then have some kind of jamb receptor or wooden jambs that will butt the new window. The vinyl window shouldn't protrude more than two inches at the most. The rest of your wall thickness should be taken up by some kind of extension jamb. Did they remove all your inside trim? Any way to take some digital picture and send them to me? I can then understand the application better to answer. IF you can that would be great.

[mybaby2028]

Guy - I am sorry I am confusing you so!

The bay was, from what I can tell so far, a full frame as it has to be. So, I am good (so far) there.
The two huge picture windows with casements were supposed to be full frame but, instead, were inserts. The fact that they were inserts is where my problems came from (loss of sill, sunken in from exterior, old trim still in place, etc.)

[Guy]

Now I got the picture. More than likely the windows were to be mulled together to make one unit. This would mean they would have to cut out your existing mullions to insert the new window. This would be a huge mistake on their part. They probably screwed up the measure of your existing windows. Even if some opening are a bit out of plumb it's not hard to make inserts work. Since they are removing a sash and replacing it with a whole frame you really loose the shelf space. They also have to add inside and outside stops. I would really put the coals to them on this one! This is really out of line if they promised one thing and provided another. The installers would have really had a job ahead of them on this opening. Email me at guy@installationmastersinc.com so I can help you along a little better.

Guy