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melbb
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Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: Apex, NC

#31 Post by melbb »

windowmann2000 wrote:For many years I have put a window into the opening sliding it to one side and insulating it with sill seal and then moving it back the other way and doing the same, and then caulking both inside and outside stops and this technique is very adequate for your region.
what do you mean by sill seal?
windowmann2000 wrote:but you can ask any installer who has ever had to remove a window recently installed for what ever reason how they feel about foaming. It's good stuff but not something I will ever use on a constant basis. Don't let it be a deterrent in your decision.
are you referring to the low expansion foam here?

I will call the installer and ask about insulating.

FenEx
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#32 Post by FenEx »

No... Sill seal is made as a product to shove under wall sill plates... that works horribly even there... but why not use it elsewhere... it's in a convenient size... and it's considered "insulation" by name.

Melbb, you have enough info to make an educated decision here. Obviously, Windowmann needs a bit more before he will put results before effort.

Windowmann.... You can do whatever you want on your jobs... but if you call them "Best Practice" here... don't expect me to be quiet. I'll compare notes any day, and I don't mean those that you comprised from RadioShack toys. Stick to what you know and can prove.

windowmann2000
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Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

#33 Post by windowmann2000 »

Gotta be carefull what you say in front of FenEx. The stuff we use comes in rolls and is some where around three and one half inches in depth to fill the sides top and bottom. No it isn't called sill seal it just reminds me of sill seal. I don't know what they call it, maybe just rolled insulation. If your carefull with it, it works well when combined with caulking. Is it as effective as foam-no. But far more practical. Does it make a big difference.......... no. We now prefer foam wrap and one of our vendors runs the foam over the edges on top making a rectangular corner which seems to make good sense. The only thing that would convince me to change these habits would be some type of documentation that there is a noticeable difference in dollars. I think FenEx likes to split the atom.
Better advise to a customer would be to pay more attention to air infiltration test which I know means dollars in savings to a customer.
FenEx has the science lab and I'm sure he'll let us know. Now I have to get to Radio Shack before it closes.

FenEx
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Location: Illinois

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#34 Post by FenEx »

"I think FenEx likes to split the atom."

Not at all. But I spend 60-70 hours a week trying to create a split between "Industry contractors" and Industry Professionals that actually earn recognition as "Professionals".

windowmann2000
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Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

#35 Post by windowmann2000 »

This threads getting a lot of action and I think my point is simple. What is the difference in dollars and the inside comfort level when insulated the way I suggest versus foam? Are we talking pennies a month or can you document something substantial. I'd really like to know if, it's a major issue I may become an advocate of the stuff.

Wds83
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:00 pm
Location: Clarks Summit,PA

#36 Post by Wds83 »

I have been in the window business for over 20 years. I have personally installed for 17 of those years. My company only deals with replacement windows. I agree with Windowmann2000 on the foam. Regular insulation stuff in the jambs plus caulk does the job. We have over 5000 customers out there and no complaints about drafts coming around the frames. I really cant see the savings in using the foam.
Last edited by Wds83 on Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Window4U (IL)
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Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois

#37 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Wds83 wrote: FenEx no disrespect but with that resume I wouldn't hire you as an installer.
First, you only read a partial resume for FenEx. He has been in the window business for a long time and can install with the best of them if he was so inclined to still do so.
In this stage of his career, he chooses to teach and inform people like you the mechanics of thermal and pressure boundaries and the causal relationship the addition of certain products have to the home as well as the methodology of their installation.
Unfortunately you seem to think you know it all already, thus losing a free opportunity to learn how to better yourself.

Secondly, I'm just hazarding a guess he wouldn't hire you either what he probably sees as your your lack of proper methods ....so I guess you are even.
Last edited by Window4U (IL) on Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wds83
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Location: Clarks Summit,PA

#38 Post by Wds83 »

Window4U I have no clue who or what he has done. I was just going off the post. I didn't say he doesn't know what hes doing just that I wouldn't hire him if he came in with them references. Now you on the other hand are disrespecting me saying a lack proper installation methods...to who's standard? Yours? FenX. just because you guys use foam doesn't mean every other company out there that doesn't use it are hacks. For my company I think it isn't necessary and thats from years of experience. I have tried it and didn't like it. To each his own...if you think it helps then use it, but don't ever disrespect me and basically calling me a Hack for not using it. I have over 5000 customers out there and no complaints.I been in this business a long time and fixed a lot of mistakes by other company's.

windowrep
Posts: 181
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Location: ne ohio

#39 Post by windowrep »

I said in an earlier post that I had the chance about a month ago to test both methods because this subject was fought about over a year and a half ago. Here are the exact situation. My friend who owns the business where we installed the windows purchased 6 polaris windows, all double hung. all are within 2 feet of each other on the same wall. We installed 3 of them with dow foam as an insulator around the frames and 3 with alside fiberglass window wrap. We caulked the inside stops with the same caulk and coil wrapped the exterior using the same method on all six windows. the readings with a infared thermometer taken at the exact same locations on all six windows showed no difference in temperature. We checked the frame, sill (marble), surrounding wall area, and nothing. No difference whatsoever. I am not saying that one is better than the other. However, I do wonder why if foam was head and shoulders above fiberglass why some of these major manufacturers would not make it mandatory or why some city building departments would not make it code(like they did with ice and water barrier in the roofing industry) or why the federal government would not require you to use foam to receive the energy tax credit. Just wondering?? Like I said before whether you use foam or fiberglass, just insulate.

Skydawggy.
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Location: Northern Virginia

#40 Post by Skydawggy. »

This debate reminds me of one I heard about whether 6ft of insulation in ones attic is better than 3ft. Nobody is going to say 3ft is better than 6ft. But does anyone really care? At what point is something good enough to to do the job? Am I better off running 93 octane in my car if performs well at 87 octane?

windowmann2000
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm

#41 Post by windowmann2000 »

I've put in a lot of windows, maybe close to 10,000. Read all the manuals I could get my hands on and always have been very disapointed with responses from the mfrg's. I've done a lot of service work for the factories and wonder if any of them could shed the light on things like it's done here, I doubt it so I'm still learning and more from this site than all the silly schools they sent me to. BTW Fenex one of those Radio Shack toys cost over $4000.00. I was P.O. when the boss bought it because it cut into my year end profit split.

Window4U (IL)
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois

#42 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Wds83 wrote:...if you think it helps then use it, but don't ever disrespect me and basically calling me a Hack for not using it.
Take it easy Wds, I don't think you are a hack for not using it. In my post, I was just pondering what I thought FenEx might think of your statement about him and what his response might be. But, I do think that you need to keep you mind open to learning different methods as building science progresses.

Is some catastrophe going to happen by using fiberglass? No.

Does foam do a better job where you have a sealed jamb and the stops on both sides are caulked creating a 100% sealed airspace?. ...probably not that much.

But, foam does do an all-around better job in my opinion. For example, is foam a better solution for outside installs?...absolutely....100%.
Can foam protect from some future interior damage if the exterior wrapping or siding starts leaking? ....quite possibly since it provides a nearly waterproof seal. We all know what wet fiberglass looks like and performs like...
Does it do a better job of stopping infiltration/exfiltration in most applications?...yes.

Any of you dealers or installers that are sold on fiberglass, it's your business, not mine or anybody else's. Do what you please.

FenEx
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Location: Illinois

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#43 Post by FenEx »

Wds83: "FenX. just because you guys use foam doesn't mean every other company out there that doesn't use it are hacks. For my company I think it isn't necessary and thats from years of experience. I have tried it and didn't like it."

Where exactly did I call you a hack? Let me add to my resume a little bit, as it appears you feel that my previously mentioned experience was all spent in vampire caves that had no windows to be installed. Aside from being a contractor for decades, I am also a national consultant and speaker for numerous government agencies, contractor organizations and many major manufacturers. Of all of these groups, the toughest obstacle comes from the contractors that have been doing things a certain way for 20-30 years. Unfortunately, most of them have been doing many things wrong for 20-30 years. This doesn't make them hacks, it makes them part of an industry that sorely lacks education and regulation of building science principles. There really is no arguement here. You are not argueing with my personal/professional views, you are really disputing the laws of physics (the basis of building science). The lack of education isn't just presented by contractors, but by manufacturers and building code officials, most of which are also not required to be formally educated in building science.

Many things are considered common practice, but that doesn't make them the best practice. I'll give you just a few examples aside from compressing fiberglass into cracks:

Using solid wood headers with double king studs and double cripples at fenestration openings: Bad idea. Aside from wasting alot of lumber, wood is a poor insulator (R-1 per inch). So around each window you have about 10 sq/ft of wall space with R-3.5- R-4(with sheathing). Today, a much more efficient method would be to eliminate the cripple studs entirely and use steel header hangers. The header itself can be an insulated truss. The use of "California" corners on exterior walls also applies to this as they cannot be properly insulated.

Adding ridge ventilation and ice & water shield (as it was mentioned here) to eliminate ice damming: Again, a very poor idea. Roofers add ridgevent all the time when doing a re-roof, but how many of them have you ever seen increasing the soffit ventilation at the same time? Ice damming is caused by heat escaping from the inside at the double top plates and it is accelerated by attic ventilation- exposing insulation to airflow right at that location by soffit vents. The laws of pressure applies, and for the system to be balanced and work, you need to have equal exhaust (ridge or top) to equal intake )soffits). Increasing the exhaust at the high point of pressure will create a negative pressure, that will find a way to equalize- sucking even more heat and air out of the home as the old soffit vents are incapable to provide the required replacement air. Increasing ventilation just gets rid of more heat faster, before it melts the ice, so you create another problem by incorrectly addressing the original. Simply put, stop the heat loss and you will eliminate the ice-damming as well as save energy.

Vented crawlspaces: This was truly a brainfart of an idea, but it's still done. Air is the primary carrier of moisture into a home and it's cavities, so let's allow more of it so it can be pulled throughout our entire home through stack-effect. Seal the space and reduce the airflow (moisture), and you can even unplug that costly dehumidifier.

Should I go on??? Only about a couple hundred more construction myths to expose.

Windowmaann and Windowrep: The goverment agencies AND many manufacturers are well aware of the inadequate codes and training procedures being used. You will begin to se MANY changes in the industry, but it appears you will have to see them imposed before recognizing them and their validity. I sit on numerous technical advisory panels that are drafting new nationwide contractor protocols, so I know they exist, just not well known to the public yet. What puzzles me about this fiberglass issue is that the two largest manufacturers of the product now "Get It", as I have shown them the results in their executive's own homes. I fly out once again next Monday on their dime ($2k/day plus all exp... just to let you know they take it seriously) to meet with them and one of their largest franchisees at his home... so He "Gets It" too. Unfortunately, it's a big country and will take alot of time, money and effort to get it into the heads of the long-time contractors. The typical resistance is pretty well represented in this thread and some are more reluctant to change than others.

Did you ever wonder why the 2005 energy tax credit was such a small amount and why the window portion was even much smaller? It's because they know that most building products including windows will only perform at about 50-70% of their engineered ability, primarily due to install. The new energy bill before congress allows up to $2,000... but it has a catch. A homeowner needs to have it performance tested after the install... and prove it's actually providing the benefits.

Don't shoot the messenger, please direct further disputes to Einstein and Newton. Modern building science groups have been pushing for change and educating for over 20 years, but historically, the average timeframe for major changes in the construction industry is 30 years.

windowrep
Posts: 181
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Location: ne ohio

#44 Post by windowrep »

GAF and Elk shingle manufacturers will require you to add soffit ventilation provided you are a master elite contractor or elk everest contractor and are offering the 15 year labor and materials warranty. just for your info. I just do not see where it would take 30 years if everyone thinks foam is head and shoulders above fiberglass, sorry. I personally have to let the dog out 4-5 times a day and i think that will let more air in then any difference a little foam may make. jmho

FenEx
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#45 Post by FenEx »

"GAF and Elk shingle manufacturers will require you to add soffit ventilation provided you are a master elite contractor or elk everest contractor and are offering the 15 year labor and materials warranty. just for your info."

And the other 95% of the contractors installing the same products??? Balancing the ventilation is good, air-sealing the ceilings and protecting the attic insulation edges from wind-washing is even better, and it reduces the amount of required roof ventilation by half (150 instead of 300 rule).
Your thinking of, "Something so small as foam around windows won't make a difference", is part of the problem in all of the building trades. The little things add up, and in a hurry. For example, a properly sealed 100 sq/ft wall will allow about 1 cup of water vapor transmission into the wall cavities over a year. Put a 1/2" hole into it allowing airflow, and it will now allow about 10 cups. Gaps of even 5% in insulation will decrease the overall efficiency of the entire surface by up to 70%. Don't think big... think small.

Windowrep, aren't you in Ohio? If so, head over to the ACI Conference (Affordable Comfort Inc.) being held this week in Cleveland. It's one of largest building professional events of the year. I'll be there Wed night-Friday speaking/presenting along with many others in the field. There are also about 1,100 industry professionals and manufacturers that will be there to learn as well, so you will be in good company. Elk and GAF will have representatives there... to learn, not to teach. Affordablecomfort.org.

There is only so much I can explain here.

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