Got my quotes: comments?
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Windows on Washington
- Posts: 5343
- Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am
- Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
Okay, so I called one of the dealers and spoke to him about insulation. He said they will insulate if I want them to. He mentioned fiberglass, but did say that they worry about moisture with that and also agreed with me that it loses some of its insulating capacity when stuffed in small places. He said if I wanted low expansion foam that there isn't enough space to fit the nozzle to apply it, so he would have to order smaller windows so that there is 1/4" space. I hate to lose glass space. I noticed FenEx mentioned "professional" foam. What are these different foams and where do you get them?
Aside from that, he said that his installer is not experienced (at least not as his employee) with using foam. How hard is it to actually apply foam? Can you really use too much?
I will be meeting with some other installers next week to see what they say. I am afraid that not using insulation might be a regional thing, but we shall see.
Aside from that, he said that his installer is not experienced (at least not as his employee) with using foam. How hard is it to actually apply foam? Can you really use too much?
I will be meeting with some other installers next week to see what they say. I am afraid that not using insulation might be a regional thing, but we shall see.
Interesting battle here! I see they're picking on you again Fen. If most of you would sit back & really consume what FeneX is talking about, you'd learn things that will help you become better at what your doing. I'm not disrespecting any of you in any way. I know we all are set in our ways and methods on how we install windows. Many of the things FeneX posts here are based off the installers across the nation simply not knowing or caring about. I've had my share of debates with him on a couple issues myself, but he has a lot of valid points on how and why things should be done.
When it comes to insulating a window or door, I can tell you with out a doubt where some of you are missing the boat. I've been in a couple studies on the different methods used to do this. When I give training classes on installation of windows & doors I even have a spot where I go over these many of these practices.
First of all you have to remember I'm in the Great White North of MN and we have to deal with temperatures most of you couldn't even come close to understanding. If we don't do it right, we'll find the issue as soon as the cold wind blows. What we use to insulate & how well it works really makes no difference what climate we're in. Whether we're trying to keep the cold out, or the heat out, we have to do it the same way to give our customers the best installation process we can. In the long run it's all the same when it comes to the conservation of energy.
Using any method other than a Urethane Low Expansion Foam (Great Stuff in the blue can) is possibly setting yourself up for a lawsuit. I know we've all heard the horror stories going on across the land. It's really another line of defense to protect yourself from an unknown failure. The 3-1/2" closed cell foam your using (aka: Sill Seal) is meant to keep water from wicking into the sill plate of the homes walls. Like FeneX stated above, it was made to put under the bottom of any wall that sits upon a concrete base. It works well because the weight of the wall holds it in place and flattens it down to seal out the elements. When you use it around a window there's no consistent force on it to make it function. Even if there was some weight on it, we all know that your gaps aren't the perfect fit from top to bottom on any window installation. You also have to consider the shims being in the way and cutting it to fit around them. If the outside happens to have any kind of air or water leak, it's going to find it's way past the foam sheet instantly. This is the same thing for stuff in insulation.
The Dow low expansion foam that cleans up with water works almost like a sponge when it dries. If you squirt some in a clear plastic cup (like a plastic disposable beverage cup) and let it dry. Pour some water on top of it and let it sit for awhile. The water will soak right in and settle into the bottom of the cup. What do you think will happen over time? Mold & Mildew lawsuits are kicking the industries backside daily. I'm not banking on these methods to protect my insurance plan! I've also heard some rumors that the Dow foam is having shearing problems if the window moves over time. I don't have any hardcore facts yet, but I've heard this more than a couple times.
The urethane foam really stands out as the best practice. It fills the gap thoroughly no matter what size it is from top to bottom. It's waterproof and seals out any kind of draft. It stays pliable and won't shear if there is any kind of movement in the frame. The best thing about it is it also works as an adhesive. Meaning when it dries, no matter what your insulating, it adheres the two pieces together. I know most of you out there have had to cut out an old door or window that was foamed in place, and it's not fun sometimes.
The most important thing most of you aren't comprehending are the legalities that we, the business owners face daily. If your just an installer for some one else and don't actually own the company, you won't see things like FeneX and some of us other installers see. If for some strange reason the installation fails or the leak comes from something else, we have to face the court system. Here in MN we're held responsible for a minimum of 10 years after the job is done. So the extra couple bucks I spend on using canned foam is well worth it. It takes a couple times to get the knack for it. We use the Pro cans which have a special gun to apply the foam. These guns can be adjusted to control the flow of the foam with out the big burst. They also have different tips to use on the gun for tiny 1/8" gaps. You just have to make sure you order your windows with the proper gaps to foam.
If none of this sinks in remember one thing. The 2006 IRC states that all doors & windows must be installed per Manufacturers Installation Guidelines. This means the posted installation guides on each item becomes code. If it calls for low expansion foam, it must be used!!!
When it comes to insulating a window or door, I can tell you with out a doubt where some of you are missing the boat. I've been in a couple studies on the different methods used to do this. When I give training classes on installation of windows & doors I even have a spot where I go over these many of these practices.
First of all you have to remember I'm in the Great White North of MN and we have to deal with temperatures most of you couldn't even come close to understanding. If we don't do it right, we'll find the issue as soon as the cold wind blows. What we use to insulate & how well it works really makes no difference what climate we're in. Whether we're trying to keep the cold out, or the heat out, we have to do it the same way to give our customers the best installation process we can. In the long run it's all the same when it comes to the conservation of energy.
Using any method other than a Urethane Low Expansion Foam (Great Stuff in the blue can) is possibly setting yourself up for a lawsuit. I know we've all heard the horror stories going on across the land. It's really another line of defense to protect yourself from an unknown failure. The 3-1/2" closed cell foam your using (aka: Sill Seal) is meant to keep water from wicking into the sill plate of the homes walls. Like FeneX stated above, it was made to put under the bottom of any wall that sits upon a concrete base. It works well because the weight of the wall holds it in place and flattens it down to seal out the elements. When you use it around a window there's no consistent force on it to make it function. Even if there was some weight on it, we all know that your gaps aren't the perfect fit from top to bottom on any window installation. You also have to consider the shims being in the way and cutting it to fit around them. If the outside happens to have any kind of air or water leak, it's going to find it's way past the foam sheet instantly. This is the same thing for stuff in insulation.
The Dow low expansion foam that cleans up with water works almost like a sponge when it dries. If you squirt some in a clear plastic cup (like a plastic disposable beverage cup) and let it dry. Pour some water on top of it and let it sit for awhile. The water will soak right in and settle into the bottom of the cup. What do you think will happen over time? Mold & Mildew lawsuits are kicking the industries backside daily. I'm not banking on these methods to protect my insurance plan! I've also heard some rumors that the Dow foam is having shearing problems if the window moves over time. I don't have any hardcore facts yet, but I've heard this more than a couple times.
The urethane foam really stands out as the best practice. It fills the gap thoroughly no matter what size it is from top to bottom. It's waterproof and seals out any kind of draft. It stays pliable and won't shear if there is any kind of movement in the frame. The best thing about it is it also works as an adhesive. Meaning when it dries, no matter what your insulating, it adheres the two pieces together. I know most of you out there have had to cut out an old door or window that was foamed in place, and it's not fun sometimes.
The most important thing most of you aren't comprehending are the legalities that we, the business owners face daily. If your just an installer for some one else and don't actually own the company, you won't see things like FeneX and some of us other installers see. If for some strange reason the installation fails or the leak comes from something else, we have to face the court system. Here in MN we're held responsible for a minimum of 10 years after the job is done. So the extra couple bucks I spend on using canned foam is well worth it. It takes a couple times to get the knack for it. We use the Pro cans which have a special gun to apply the foam. These guns can be adjusted to control the flow of the foam with out the big burst. They also have different tips to use on the gun for tiny 1/8" gaps. You just have to make sure you order your windows with the proper gaps to foam.
If none of this sinks in remember one thing. The 2006 IRC states that all doors & windows must be installed per Manufacturers Installation Guidelines. This means the posted installation guides on each item becomes code. If it calls for low expansion foam, it must be used!!!
Reply
Good point Windowrep... why do it if it's not required, even if it is considered best practice by ALL of the leading industry authorities involved in efficiency and sustainability.
The manufacturers care about their product, not the overall solutions in a home. This is a BIG part of the problem!
The manufacturers care about their product, not the overall solutions in a home. This is a BIG part of the problem!
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windowmann2000
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm
Fenestration Expert, pretty much says it all. It's good to have someone aboard here with your knowledge. I had a hammer in my hand before your dad had a twinkle in his eye, but this old dog is now teaching his crew new tricks. The windows I put in seem to be ok being carefull with the insulation and the caulking but were now using foam.........it's simply a better job. Besides the obvious, I like the extra adhesion. We'll be doing a little cleaning as we go, which I witnessed yesterday but I'm sure with a little practice the guys will get proficient at it. There are too many pluses not to go in this direction. Thanks FenEx for all your imput.
Reply
Windowmann
You are welcome Sir. I might even suggest presenting your interest in excellence in your marketing as you are taking a step above most of your competitors to insure a better result... even if it means a slightly additional cost of labor and materials (insignificant $).
Too many of "US" that have been following the rules for so many years find it hard to change, We learned, "READY.... FIRE!!!!" When you add on scientific change, you get, "READY... FIRE... AIM!!!!...??????... (oops... what was I thinking before?)
Good luck to you, let me know if I can help further. Email on profile.
You are welcome Sir. I might even suggest presenting your interest in excellence in your marketing as you are taking a step above most of your competitors to insure a better result... even if it means a slightly additional cost of labor and materials (insignificant $).
Too many of "US" that have been following the rules for so many years find it hard to change, We learned, "READY.... FIRE!!!!" When you add on scientific change, you get, "READY... FIRE... AIM!!!!...??????... (oops... what was I thinking before?)
Good luck to you, let me know if I can help further. Email on profile.
Almost every major manufacturer has a note or requirement of Low Expansion Foam. There are even state codes that are now calling for it. I can't believe there are installers out there who aren't up on all this. This has been in the lime light for the past ten years and some of you still won't jump. It boggles my mind!!
By the way FeneX, I wouldn't hire you either. You cost to much! hehehe
By the way FeneX, I wouldn't hire you either. You cost to much! hehehe
Well, I had another installer out today. He insulates, but called it sill seal. I don't think it is what FenEx referred to, though. It sounded like what windowman described, foam in rolls. I asked the installer about low expanding foam. He said they used it once and didn't like it. I have one other installer coming out tomorrow. I think after him I will have to throw in the towel and accept that people here don't know what they are doing. Sigh.....
Ok, with this on going discussion about Foam I decided this week to test it out again. Went to HD and bought a few cans of it for Mondays install. The windows were perfect to test it out on...Installed them from the outside...cut the stops off. Started to insulate them with the foam and noticed you really have to pay close attention to filling the gap completely and the foam could really cause a mess...comes out way to fast out of the can...by the end of the day Monday I still hated the foam.
Today went to HD and purchased a gun for the foam figured it might be a little better. Had the same type of windows to install today..put in from outside..Started insulating them with the gun. Couldn't believe the difference!!! You could lay a nice bead right down the edge and it takes much less time then stuffing insulation. Wasn't messy at all with the gun. I know I downed the foam a week ago but know I am a firm believer. It takes much less time to insulated the window and it does seal them up nice. You definitely need a gun. Don't even waste your time or money on the regular cans. It took 1/2 can to do 4 windows..so the cost isn't much. So you guys sold me on the foam..starting to buy a few cases
melbb I wouldn't worry to much about the foam issue. Just tell your installer that's how you want it done if your bent on it. Its not that hard to do if you have the gun.
FenEX I still wouldnt hire you as an installer.....lol
Today went to HD and purchased a gun for the foam figured it might be a little better. Had the same type of windows to install today..put in from outside..Started insulating them with the gun. Couldn't believe the difference!!! You could lay a nice bead right down the edge and it takes much less time then stuffing insulation. Wasn't messy at all with the gun. I know I downed the foam a week ago but know I am a firm believer. It takes much less time to insulated the window and it does seal them up nice. You definitely need a gun. Don't even waste your time or money on the regular cans. It took 1/2 can to do 4 windows..so the cost isn't much. So you guys sold me on the foam..starting to buy a few cases
melbb I wouldn't worry to much about the foam issue. Just tell your installer that's how you want it done if your bent on it. Its not that hard to do if you have the gun.
FenEX I still wouldnt hire you as an installer..
...lol-
Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
Wds,
Thumbs up and respect for your decision to try it again.
It is now very understandable why you didn't like foam before. I wouldn't have liked it either if my only choice was to use the cans with the straws....what a mess.
In the late fall/early winter when it gets real chilly, switch over to the Hilti foam. It works in colder conditions where the Dow foam won't. You will know when it is too cold for Dow when you see it come out and expand slower, and with a dark yellow slimy look to it.
Hilti switched their formula to a cold weather formula a while back and it works really great in colder weather.
The rest of the year, you will see virtually no difference between the two brands and we use both.
Thumbs up and respect for your decision to try it again.
It is now very understandable why you didn't like foam before. I wouldn't have liked it either if my only choice was to use the cans with the straws....what a mess.
In the late fall/early winter when it gets real chilly, switch over to the Hilti foam. It works in colder conditions where the Dow foam won't. You will know when it is too cold for Dow when you see it come out and expand slower, and with a dark yellow slimy look to it.
Hilti switched their formula to a cold weather formula a while back and it works really great in colder weather.
The rest of the year, you will see virtually no difference between the two brands and we use both.