Got my quotes: comments?

[melbb]

I don't seem to have a lot of choices here on windows. No Schuco, no Simonton 9800s and no Great Lakes. So I got quotes on Gorell 5300 and Simonton 5500. Both are for dual pane, low-e/argon. Simonton is upgraded to the superspacer. I have 19 windows (1 slider, 2 picture, 16 double hung), most about 30" x 62" and a few smaller ones (kitchen, bathroom).

Simonton quote #1: 9K
Simonton quote #2: 9.1K
Gorell quote: 11.8K

I was not too pleased with the company that gave me Simonton quote #1. I think they deal mostly with new construction and really didn't want to be bothered by me. The salesman was 1.5 hours late to appointment and knew nothing about windows, was trying to get me to go for the Alside Excalibur.

I think both Simonton #2 and Gorell dealers/installers seemed reputable. Both have been in business for 20+ years. I still need to check out references and I am not really clear on any labor warranty. One thing that bothered me a little about both is that neither insulate around the windows. The Simonton guy said that the gap is no more than 1/8", so caulk is enough. The Gorell guy said that since the windows were custom made, there is a small gap and the foam wrap should take care of that. Should I be concerned about this? I know from reading past posts on this board that most of you pros don't think much of not using the low expansion foam for insulating. So, I am not sure how to approach this and would appreciate any advice.

Aside from insulation issues, I am thinking the Simonton windows are probably a better window because of the superspacer and the price is better, too. What do you think? And how are the prices?

Thanks.

[Windows on Washington]

Typically if a window is measured properly and ordered with a foam collar there is little to no room to insulate between the replacement insert frame and the rough opening frame.

That being said, there is often areas where a little glass would go a long way to cutting down on air infiltration in surronding areas. I would not throw it out as a possibility and I always have my guys keep it on the truck. Some people have preconceived notions about fiberglass and window insulating foam (non-expanding spray foam) but when you show them how the installation goes, their fears are abated.

[windowrep]

1/8" around the window is ideal for installation and is a properly measured unit. it allows for possible contraction and expansion of both the window itself and the structure that it is fit into. besides that you will never see an insert window going into a perfectly square frame. that 1/8" will allow the window to remain square even though the opening may not be. actually a 1/4" around the window is fine depending on how old the house is and what type of window will be replaced (ie wood, metal,pan ect..) with all of that being said I have never installed and all the contractors (reputable) that I know in this area have ever and will never install a window without either additional fiberglass insulation or low expanding foam. Some windows that come with a factory applied wrap are helpful to the installer but using that barrier alone is not enough especially in a cold climate. actually in any climate. not only for air infiltration but noise reduction also. your installer should have no issue insulating around the windows properly, it is cheap to buy and does not take that long to apply. besides this is your chance to do it now while the wrap and/or trim is off from around the window. very seldom will you get a complaint from a homeowner that you used too much insulation. I can hear the call back now "your guys where great but they used too much insulation" not going to happen. however the opposite will. The only problem that can occur with either foam or fiberglass is improper installation and causing bowing in the main frame. For an experienced installer however this will not be a problem. I say insulate away! imo

[windowmann2000]

I'll go along with both WoW and windowrep. We like to order foam wrap on all windows and add a little fiberglass at the corners and underneath the sill. On the top however we leave a minimum of a 1/4" so adjustments can be made if the sill is out of whack and caulk both the indside and the outside stops.
As of this date the inside caulk is Novaflex because of enviromental issues with quad, which is only used on the outside.

[Windows on Washington]

That Quad can clear a house out if you aren't careful. I have heard that DAP has a caulk called sidewinder that is supposed to have the same consistency and is an elastomeric matrix without the VOC content.

[melbb]

Okay, so it sounds like I need to ask them to insulate. So how does a consumer like me (and a woman) tell an "expert" how to do their job? And from what windowprep said, if the gap is no more than 1/8" it sounds like you can't really insulate. This is what one of the installers said, but that assumes that the measurements are perfect, so I feel like I need to be watching over their shoulders, which I am sure they wouldn't appreciate. Ugh. Maybe I can just sell the house and let someone else deal with it!

I would assume that good installers only use Quad on the outside?

[Windows on Washington]

The measurement process is not a complicated one. If your installers are any good, the measurements should be right on and therefore the amount of insulation required or allowable room should be minimal.

The installers should not have a problem with you watching as long as you are not under foot and in the way.

[FenEx]

I would totally disagree with any use of fiberglass as an insulator or airseal around windows or doors... because it's neither when used like this. Do not make the mistake that many contractors do by confusing a product's name "insulation" with it's eventual function. The only part of fiberglass insulation that actually insulates is the "dead air" it traps, not the fiberglass itself. When it's compressed into a cavity... it has no insulation value. It is also an extremely poor air barrier... that's why they make furnace filters out of it... air goes right through it. Keep in mind that air, not rain (bulk moisture), is the primary carrier of moisture into the home and it's cavities. Air infiltration/exfiltration is also responsible for more heat loss/gain than insulation in a home. This is because it's not only exchanging conditioned air with outside air, but the movement of that air pulls heat right out of building materials. EX: If you stand in front of a fan, you will feel cool. But ask yourself why... it's blowing out the same temperature air it's sucking in. The moving air removes heat from the surface of your skin.

When fliberglass insulation is given it's R-value, it is in a lab where it is completely relaxed and subject to zero airflow and zero moisture. Any amount of compression, airflow or moisture drops it's R-value like a hot rock. Most vinyl window manufacturers ask for a half-inch of space vertically and horizontally (1/4" on each side for movement). Even if you have an 1/8", you can easily apply a low-pressure foam into the opening if you are using a professional gun applied foam. The window and door foams adhere very well to both the window and the framing and remain soft and flexible upon curing. They will also fill any voids or crevices in the framing itself, unlike pre-applied foam tape.

I see everyday where people have fiberglass insulation in their attics, and the edge is right next to their soffit vents. Thermal imaging we provide shows the heat loss traveling inward across the ceiling several feet as the air (called wind washing) pulls the heat right out of the product. This is the primary cause of ice-damming.... it's not a lack of ventilation as most state. That just gets rid of the heat faster so it won't melt the snow and ice, but it pulls the heat out of your home even faster too- $$$. We also find consistant losses around windows insulated with fiberglass, both from conduction and air infiltration standpoints.

Understand that ANY and ALL building products need to be used and installed so they are subject to the same (or as close to) circumstances that they were designed for and rated at. Unfortunatley, most building products in the US are performing at around 50-70% of their ability... and this includes brand new homes.

Who was the guy in another thread that said installing windows isn't rocket science? Perhaps not.... but for it do be done properly, there is absolutely science involved!

[Windows on Washington]

Good information. As I stated earlier, putting glass in the openings is typically for the homeowner's feelings and not as a result of neccessity. I have had people specifically request it because of their ideas about its insulative value. That is great information. When you pull out a can of window foam, some people run scared because of over expansion horror stories.

Good post.

[melbb]

Thanks, FenEx. I remember a similar discussion in another thread about fiberglass vs. foam. Since I have been told they don't insulate because the space around the window is no more than 1/8", I guess my concern would be if the installer has ever really used foam and if he would use it properly. I don't want overexpanding problems that Windows on Washington mentioned. How concerned should I be about this? How much is too much foam?

Nobody has said anything about the quotes themselves. Are they reasonable??

[windowmann2000]

If the installer uses foam, make sure any cleanup is his responsilbility. Your prices seem low, especially if the price includes exterior wrapping. The windows your looking at are from decent mfrg's, make sure they have good installers. FenEx is not an installer, very knowledgeable but not an installer. Using foam is great when the space is right and the installer is capable. You give half the installers in this country some foam and view the planet from outer space and this country will look like planet marshmallow.

[windowrep]

i do not know all the technical data and i really do not care to know. however i do know that after 17 years and thousands of windows installed including my own house, if i feel a draft i stuff fiberglass into it and i do not feel a draft anymore. have pulled wrap off of countless houses with newer window put in and there is no insulation. we insulate with fiberglass and re-wrap and the homeowner notices a big difference immediately. I did use foam on a small commercial building about 6 weeks ago and all went well but i did not notice any difference on the inside that day or the following week when it was 20 degrees and 40 mph winds. We did the other three windows in the same building on the same wall the year before using fiberglass only. digital thermometer had same readings at numerous points both on the glass and around the frame. I think the bottom line is just to insulate whether you use foam or fiberglass. anyway i like the simonton over the gorell.

[Windows on Washington]

That being said, what foam are you guys using if using it at all. Most guys I see are using the Dow Pro gun applied foam.

[Window4U (IL)]

That being said, what foam are you guys using if using it at all. Most guys I see are using the Dow Pro gun applied foam.

We use either Hilti or Dow gun applied foam 8 months out of the year, but only Hilti in colder weather.

[windowrep]

dow