super spacer question: is this normal?

[melbb]

I am finally having my Simonton windows put in and had a question on the super spacer. I have been inspecting some of the windows and noticed that there seems to be a very small hole/crack in the spacer. It is in the same location on all of the windows, so I am wondering if this is normal. I haven't asked the installer about it yet. Here is a picture of one.

[windowguru]

where the argon/krypton gas is introduced??

[melbb]

Yeah, that is it, according to Simonton. I didn't think about that.

[av]

Maybe that's a good reason to stay away from argon/krypton filled windows?

[DWS]

Maybe that's a good reason to stay away from argon/krypton filled windows?

Why would this be a bad reason to purchace a energy efficent glass package???? Its no different than the screw plug in intercept. It is sealed fron the outside of the unit once the gas is inserted. There is no data saying argon/krypon gas filled units are more likely to fog.

[av]

I didn't claim such windows were more likely to fog. The hole will bug some people. The apparent crack emanating from the hole bugs me, since it may propagate in time.

[FenEx]

AV

The pin filling system that makes that hole is being replaced by vacuum chamber gas insertion by the best perfomers. This photo is of Edgetech's Super Spacer which relies on it's secondary butyl seal that is outside of the spacer itself. The photo you see it enlarged and the hole you see is actually very small. You are looking at a spacer... not a seal and the hole is not likely to get larger nor is it likely to become a problem with a structural silicon spacer. Although Edgetech claims a dual seal, it's not. The first is actually nothing more than an acrylic adhesive (not a sealant) to hold the spacer in place during manufacturing while the butyl seal is applied.

You are however dead wrong about it effecting or being a reason to avoid the substantially better performing gas filled IGs.

[av]

You are however dead wrong about it effecting or being a reason to avoid the substantially better performing gas filled IGs.

I am not sure how I can be wrong about something I didn't say. I made no comments about thermal performance. But now I will. I don't see how you can call the performance "substantially better." It seems like Argon gas typically lowers the U factor by about 0.03 to 0.04 for air filled windows that have U factors in the 0.32-0.34 range. That is noticeably better in very cold climates, marginally better in temperate climates such as California's. I guess "substantial" is a subjective word, but to me, substantially better is more appropriate for describing he difference between single pane aluminum windows and double pane vinyl ones.

[Windows on Washington]

You are however dead wrong about it effecting or being a reason to avoid the substantially better performing gas filled IGs.

I am not sure how I can be wrong about something I didn't say. I made no comments about thermal performance. But now I will. I don't see how you can call the performance "substantially better." It seems like Argon gas typically lowers the U factor by about 0.03 to 0.04 for air filled windows that have U factors in the 0.32-0.34 range. That is noticeably better in very cold climates, marginally better in temperate climates such as California's. I guess "substantial" is a subjective word, but to me, substantially better is more appropriate for describing he difference between single pane aluminum windows and double pane vinyl ones.

I think part of the "substantial" that Fenex was referring to was having to do with the Super Spacer as compared to a standard metal intercept. Both are just as likely to leak as they both employ some type of plug or pin filling system. Those companies that employ a vacuum chamber gas filling station are able to avoid that pin/plug/screw altogether and as such would abate your fears regarding a failure.

Why not opt for the argon/krypton fill if you will net better glass performance especially considering that it is not an extra expense option when compared to low-e standard. Nearly every company I know packages the two together and some do not even offer Low-e without gas fill.

.02 to .04 should also not be flippantly disregarded as that gain is netted specifically from the glass. You will also benefit from better condensation resistantance and thermal performance of the glass.

[av]

I think it was pretty clear that he was referring to the Argon fill, not the spacers. Also, my anticipation that the crack may propagate does not mean I anticipate failure. I don't know what's underneath that spacer. This thing may be dual sealed, with only the first seal having a puncture and the second seal having been applied subsequent to the fill. So I want to make it clear that I am not implying impending doom. My comment was mostly for the esthetics of such a punctured cracked seal.

But the fact that you mention some companies go through the trouble of using gas chambers to do the filling makes me wonder if there is a durability issue. Of course, they may be doing it just to avoid a second seal, to achieve a higher percentage of Argon in the fill, or to make sure "it looks" good, or a combination of all these.

I am in Southern California, where so far, I haven't seen anyone package Low-e with Argon as a standard practice. It is an option. I have seen a few posts mention it is a $75 option per window. In S. Cal, that makes no economic sense. Perhaps in colder parts of the country Argon is commonly packaged as a standard feature and the cost is therefore much less. I just don't know.

[Windows on Washington]

Fenex mentionned in the secondary seal in a previous post. The primary seal in most Super Spacer windows is nothing more than glorified 2 sided tape. This hardly provides a good seal for the gas and a bulk of the sealing is maintained by a butyl coating around the perimeter of the spacer on the outside edge of the IG. The Butyl coating is what ultimately seals that opening and is designed to keep the gas fill inside the IG.

I hardly see that pinhole as an aesthetic issues, however, if that is important to you as a consumer, that is what is important. You picture does not honestly represent the size of that pinhole as it is zoomed in.

The companies that use a vacuum chamber gas filling application do so primarily to get a full gas fill and in some cases, implement an altogether different spacer/sealing system. Most IG units have some sort of secondary seal to either offset defficiencies of for backup.

I am not familiar with the CA market, however, you seem to be pretty convinced of your decision so I would go forward with it.