Hi everyone!
I have already gotten Guy's opinion on the top 5 window manufacturers in my area and would like other people's input and why they feel these are the top 5...really picking brains today.
I also would like to know why people feel they must install the best of the best when in reality the energy savings isn't going to be all that different from a middle of the road window versus the most expensive...or at least not enough to substantiate the huge price difference. My example is here are two price quotes we have gotten:
Schuco Insulsash 720 per window
Certainteed Bryn Mawr II 315 per window
What could the Insulsash have or do to make it worth the extra 405 per window? We have 18 windows to install and that makes it an extra 5000+ for windows...our average heating bill is around 1000 a year if oil prices don't skyrocket any more...the buzz I hear is that you truly don't save half you are lucky to get 30%....and the whole argon and krypton thing is that it will gone after 5-10 years anyhow so the window efficiency will be much lower.
I appreciate anyone's thoughts...I have read you should NEVER pay more than 500 a hole as even the Schuco windows only cost 180-200 to make...quite the markup...let me know if I am incorrect. Thanks all!
TOP 5 in New England Area
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
Good question Debster. Your "inside" info of what windows cost is too simplistic and off base, but understandable.
Just because a small window with no options starts off at what seems to be a low price, that doesn't make it what the average window costs, and the rest is NOT profit. It's amazing what little profit many of these jobs end up having when all expenses are paid. The options and expenses really add up to the contractor, and the window cost is only a part of the money that is spent to do your job. (Caulking, aluminum coil stock, nails, trim, trim stops, shimming materials, new sill stock for rotted wood, the gasoline and the travel time it takes for the 5 or 6 trips to your home for example.) Many windows with full options and large size can cost the dealer hundreds more than the basic small window does. Add onto that the business expenses of "REAL" contractors who pay taxes, pay workers compensation, have insurance, pay for permits, have business licenses, have service staffs and have a physical place of business, and your "big markup" doesn't seem so big anymore.
There will always be guys who sell and work out of their pickup trucks with no workmens comp and insurance who can beat the prices of a legit company. (They are everywhere) The question you should ask yourself is, "Are you going to choose a contractor who will be there to service your windows in 10-15 years", or... will you just bitch about the horrible window industry when you find out your guy is no longer around and you have no one to help you fix your window problems.
The decision of who to pick and what window to pick is not an easy one. All I can tell you is to do your research and think about it from many angles, just not price alone
By the way, $315 is extremely cheap for BMII's. Basically, it's labor and material, period. Makes me wonder......
Just because a small window with no options starts off at what seems to be a low price, that doesn't make it what the average window costs, and the rest is NOT profit. It's amazing what little profit many of these jobs end up having when all expenses are paid. The options and expenses really add up to the contractor, and the window cost is only a part of the money that is spent to do your job. (Caulking, aluminum coil stock, nails, trim, trim stops, shimming materials, new sill stock for rotted wood, the gasoline and the travel time it takes for the 5 or 6 trips to your home for example.) Many windows with full options and large size can cost the dealer hundreds more than the basic small window does. Add onto that the business expenses of "REAL" contractors who pay taxes, pay workers compensation, have insurance, pay for permits, have business licenses, have service staffs and have a physical place of business, and your "big markup" doesn't seem so big anymore.
There will always be guys who sell and work out of their pickup trucks with no workmens comp and insurance who can beat the prices of a legit company. (They are everywhere) The question you should ask yourself is, "Are you going to choose a contractor who will be there to service your windows in 10-15 years", or... will you just bitch about the horrible window industry when you find out your guy is no longer around and you have no one to help you fix your window problems.
The decision of who to pick and what window to pick is not an easy one. All I can tell you is to do your research and think about it from many angles, just not price alone
By the way, $315 is extremely cheap for BMII's. Basically, it's labor and material, period. Makes me wonder......
Debster, i don't know enough about the Schuco window to comment on their pricing. But i do know the Bryn Mawr ll quite well, and if you're paying $315 installed, you really can't go wrong. Unless, of course, the installer never did one before, and he is using your home as a training facility. 
Learn how to install vinyl replacement windows. Visit http://www.how-to-install-windows.com.
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
Or.......... unless like I said in my previous post he doesn't have all his ducks in a row with workmens comp, insurance, taxes, etc.johnmr12 wrote:Debster, i don't know enough about the Schuco window to comment on their pricing. But i do know the Bryn Mawr ll quite well, and if you're paying $315 installed, you really can't go wrong. Unless, of course, the installer never did one before, and he is using your home as a training facility.
A sizable portion of the installers in this business are not legit as far as these items are concerned. Make sure you are protected.
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Debster460
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:30 am
Windows 4U,
I realize everyone has expenses and needs to mark things up however when Schuco comes in they start at their "list" price of 1200 a window and then when you don't bite come way down...this is what I mean by markup....I know the regular window salespeople will mark things up but if Schuco gets list price for those windows we are talking ripoff...this is what gives us shoppers the confusion. The Byrn Mawr II windows would be from a local family owned company that has been in business for 11+ years now they have a good reputation in our area. He and his sons are certified to install the Certainteed windows...I believe he is a Master Installer if I saw correctly on the Certainteed website.
I guess what info I am really looking for is quality and value...the top 5 in my area to look at. Installing 18 windows is a huge investment and I want to make an educated purchase and not have to crab later on about my poor choice. The problem is you can never compare apples to apples and unless you have each window side by side your average consumer won't be able to spot the major differences which is why I am asking here where you all know windows.
Thanks for your input..don't want to tick anyone off I know everyone needs to make a living!
I realize everyone has expenses and needs to mark things up however when Schuco comes in they start at their "list" price of 1200 a window and then when you don't bite come way down...this is what I mean by markup....I know the regular window salespeople will mark things up but if Schuco gets list price for those windows we are talking ripoff...this is what gives us shoppers the confusion. The Byrn Mawr II windows would be from a local family owned company that has been in business for 11+ years now they have a good reputation in our area. He and his sons are certified to install the Certainteed windows...I believe he is a Master Installer if I saw correctly on the Certainteed website.
I guess what info I am really looking for is quality and value...the top 5 in my area to look at. Installing 18 windows is a huge investment and I want to make an educated purchase and not have to crab later on about my poor choice. The problem is you can never compare apples to apples and unless you have each window side by side your average consumer won't be able to spot the major differences which is why I am asking here where you all know windows.
Thanks for your input..don't want to tick anyone off I know everyone needs to make a living!
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
If the company has been in business for 11 years, then the price you got is very appealing. Buying from reputable people was my main concern for you. I carry the Bryn Mahr too, and except for the rolled formed screen which is prone to bowing during manufacture, it is a good window. If your screens come in and are not bowed at the sill, you are in good shape. If they are bowed, all the dealer has to do is reorder them until they are right.
I totally agree with you on windows priced at $1200 and all the games these type dealers play, as I am sure you are aware of if you have read many of my posts. I'm a Schuco dealer but I am in no way connected to other dealers, and I will not support old style tin-man practices I feel are not necessary in this day and age no matter who it is. I've done everything in my power to educate people to not get taken advantage of, and to above all make educated decisions. I wish you well with your purchase. Enjoy your windows.
window4u@insightbb.com
I totally agree with you on windows priced at $1200 and all the games these type dealers play, as I am sure you are aware of if you have read many of my posts. I'm a Schuco dealer but I am in no way connected to other dealers, and I will not support old style tin-man practices I feel are not necessary in this day and age no matter who it is. I've done everything in my power to educate people to not get taken advantage of, and to above all make educated decisions. I wish you well with your purchase. Enjoy your windows.
window4u@insightbb.com
Last edited by Window4U (IL) on Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Debster460
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:30 am
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Debster460
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:30 am
Windows4U,
If you do deal with Schuco what price would you quote me then for 18 windows...triple pane?
I have 12 windows 34.5X 44.5 3 windows 26.5x36.5 and a picture window with two small windows I think that was going to be a slider 93.75x48 You sound like a good honest person so I would glady take your quote and see if I can work with the Schuco company here to get the best of the best. If you prefer not to quote on the message board you can e-mail me direct Debster460@yahoo.com
Thanks again!
If you do deal with Schuco what price would you quote me then for 18 windows...triple pane?
I have 12 windows 34.5X 44.5 3 windows 26.5x36.5 and a picture window with two small windows I think that was going to be a slider 93.75x48 You sound like a good honest person so I would glady take your quote and see if I can work with the Schuco company here to get the best of the best. If you prefer not to quote on the message board you can e-mail me direct Debster460@yahoo.com
Thanks again!
Great Post Windows4U!
It must be the MN blood that keeps you going!!! (HA) I agree with you on education. I do everything I can to help my customer. Even if they choose someone else. I tell them all I can so they can make a good fair decision. If I'm not in the cards at the end I did my best! I really concentrate on the installation of the window so they know what's going to happen. If they don't know the application they are sometimes shocked upon completion. Like loosing some shelf space for trinkets like Mybaby did recently. So many salesman never tell the customer how the application will work and what to expect. I think it's really important to know what your getting and how it's going in!!
Guy
It must be the MN blood that keeps you going!!! (HA) I agree with you on education. I do everything I can to help my customer. Even if they choose someone else. I tell them all I can so they can make a good fair decision. If I'm not in the cards at the end I did my best! I really concentrate on the installation of the window so they know what's going to happen. If they don't know the application they are sometimes shocked upon completion. Like loosing some shelf space for trinkets like Mybaby did recently. So many salesman never tell the customer how the application will work and what to expect. I think it's really important to know what your getting and how it's going in!!
Guy