Inspecting windows after installation

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MadScientist
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Inspecting windows after installation

#1 Post by MadScientist »

The installers just came today to install my new windows (there may be some more wrapping tomorrow). Before I sign off on the work and hand over the final check, how should I go about inspecting the job, and what are the things I should really look for. It will be a cold day, so I should be able to feel air leakage, but any other things to look for would be great.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#2 Post by HomeSealed »

Locks should operate smoothly, seals between sashes and frame should be even and tight (can't see any light). Open the upper and lower sashes about 1/2 inch-- reveal should be consistent all the way across, and obviously you should not feel any draft when closed and locked. From outside, trim should look tight and clean, no dings, large gaps, and preferably no face nails. Caulking should be clean and smooth.
Last edited by HomeSealed on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#3 Post by TheWindowNerd »

+1

MadScientist
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#4 Post by MadScientist »

Thanks for the tips. I don't see any light, the reveal looks even. There are some places on the outside that need caulking. The real problem is the cold coming through. I don't feel a breeze coming through, but I can feel the cold when I put my hand near the bottom of the window. The outside air dropped to ~20 yesterday, and I got considerable condensation, mostly on the bottom of the upper sash. When I measured the temperature of the glass, I was seeing 35-40. I have also measured a temperature as low as 30 where the new window frame meets the old frame.

If this is what I can expect, I wish I never bothered with replacing the windows. At the moment, it is just a depressing waste of money.

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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#5 Post by Skydawggy. »

What window did you end up going with?

Have you contacted the installer to complain? What did he say?

Sounds like the lock and keeper need adjusting

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HomeSealed
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#6 Post by HomeSealed »

I agree with Eco, you need to call the installer out to take a look. You should not have all of that cold coming in. There are either adjustments to be made or insufficient insulation around the opening, unless you bought a cheap window.... On the condensation, it could partially be those other issues affecting it, however homes are usually still damp this time of year, therefore more likely to develop condensation when the temp drops. Around here we had 65* , humid tempertures and thunderstorms, followed by 20* tempertures the next day. Pretty hard to avoid condensation in those circumstances.

MadScientist
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#7 Post by MadScientist »

HomeSealed wrote:I agree with Eco, you need to call the installer out to take a look. You should not have all of that cold coming in. There are either adjustments to be made or insufficient insulation around the opening, unless you bought a cheap window.... On the condensation, it could partially be those other issues affecting it, however homes are usually still damp this time of year, therefore more likely to develop condensation when the temp drops. Around here we had 65* , humid tempertures and thunderstorms, followed by 20* tempertures the next day. Pretty hard to avoid condensation in those circumstances.
I will call on Monday, as I hadn't inspected the caulking until today. The windows are Gorell 5305 (AC master glass). I agree the conditions here were extreme (and the freezing rain today probably doesn't help any) as far as humidity and temperature drops, but the window temperatures really surprised me, as they are not much different than my 20 year old wooden windows were.

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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#8 Post by MadScientist »

I called Monday and the installer came out yesterday. He said that there was insulation around the frame that came from Gorell that shouldn't be leaking any air. He did re-caulk around the outside to take care of the gaps which he said were likely from the bad weather that rolled in when they were finishing the wrapping (the storm had dropped below sever, but was still pretty strong). He also added more caulk around the inside of the window as well. He was also going to talk to another guy to see if there was some additional weather stripping that could be added.

The caulking seems to have helped to some extent with the temperatures I was seeing on the frames. There's still condensation on the bottom of the top sash when the outside temp hits 20. I don't know how much to blame indoor humidity, since a humidity level of 35% @ 69 degrees (the recommended level) gives a dew point of 40, and the glass is at or below that temperature at the edges. I'm hopeful a little more weather stripping that can help.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

Gorell does put a foam wrap around their frame, but I add spray foam in addition. My opinion is completely speculative being that I have not seen the install, but I'd say that there is a fair chance that this is the cause of at least some of your issues. The fact that the exterior caulking helped, tells me that air is moving in around the window. A closed cell low-expansion foam would have sealed that, even with some caulk shrinkage... I'm also not really sure what they propose as far as adding weatherstripping. If the exisiting weatherstripping is not missing or defective, there should be no reason to add any. They could also cause warranty issues if they attempt to "cobble" something on.

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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#10 Post by FenEx »

Mad
The so called "cold" air you feel may not be able to be addressed by caulking. As a matter of fact, it might not be airflow to the inside at all. It is more than likely conductive loss around the new frame due to poor insulation. Gorell provides a foam tape that is not sufficient on it's own to provide a proper thermal and pressure boundary seal. The condensation on the bottom of the upper sash is evidence of a poor interlock where the sashes meet, dropping the surface temperature. Caulking is not even an option here on an operational window.

If you are reading your humidity level from the humidistat control near your furnace.... you need to take a real reading with an accurate device and check it in different areas of your home.

MadScientist
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#11 Post by MadScientist »

Can the foam be added at this stage, or am I out of luck?

Is there some adjustment that can be made to the interlock? All the windows are the same, so it isn't like there is a defect in one window.

The one hygrometer I have is reading 33, but I'm not convinced of it's reliability, so I will get another one. I've mostly been using the thermal data on the windows to get an idea when the condensation occurs, and doing the reverse calculation. I've never turned the humidifier on in the 10 years I've lived in this house, in fact the air duct is set to summer and the water valve is turned off.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#12 Post by HomeSealed »

Any thing can be done. I would look back at your contract to see what was specified for insulation. If there is nothing specied or only the "factory foam wrap", then you probably won't get it for free... Either the exterior or interior trim would have to be removed and reinstalled (or replaced) in order to get a proper foam fill. The condensation on the the bottom of the upper sash glass does not necessarily mean a poor interlock seal. It could be a possibility, but that location will be the very first spot for condensation to occur on any window. You could run a bead of caulk on that interlock and it would still be the first place that condensation would occur. If you run your finger along the meeting rail, are the two sashes even all the way across? Do you feel any air leakage?

FenEx
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#13 Post by FenEx »

Homesealed
"The condensation on the the bottom of the upper sash glass does not necessarily mean a poor interlock seal. It could be a possibility, but that location will be the very first spot for condensation to occur on any window."

Why do you think that is and how would you explain it? I will use the laws of physics.

A. Air is the primary source of moisture in a home and leakage sources introduce additional water vapor (humidity) while removing heat from adjoining surfaces, thus reaching the dew point threshold more rapidly.
B. When the home is losing heated air through stack effect, it creates a higher pressure at higher elevation and seeks replacement through the lowest pressure sources (bottom) of all surfaces, including window sashes. Unlike air and other fluids, although heat will also try to equalize, it will move in ALL directions with equal force and would not have greater loss at the bottom of a window. As a matter of fact, the heavier Noble gases (Argon/Krypton) are more concentrated in the bottom of the IGU's due to gravity. I can provide thermographs showing this occurance.

Please respond. I enjoy the exchange of ideas and beliefs.

For the original poster, it sounds like you have a combination of conductive loss and air leakage. Try temporary painters tape on all openings to determine the effect of each.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#14 Post by HomeSealed »

Fen Ex, I can't state it as eloquently as my comments are based primarily just on what I've seen, but here are a couple of posts that I've dug up regarding theorectical alternative causes:

There is one thing that a lot of people , even the experts, miss on condensation on windows. The area on a double hung window at the meeting rail and also at the bottom lift rail act as shelves for cooler air to settle. This cooler area doesn't get the air flow and is a natural cool spot which can cause condensation to form. If the meeting rail weatherstripping was loose there would be air flow and condensation would have a harder time appearing.

On Double Hung meeting rail condensation:

It is certainly true that the 'shelf effect' results in lower air velocity where glass meets sash, encouraging condensation to form. We see this 'shelf effect' when recessed triple glazed windows get condensation before double glazed doors.

But, it is also true that condensation forms at the meeting rail because the bottom rail of the upper sash (upper meeting rail) is cold not just on its outside face but also on its bottom edge; kind of like a skylight.

By my way of thinking, it is normal for double hungs to show condensation on the bottom of the upper sash before elsewhere; this certainly seems to be the case on mine.


Again, my comments are merely from personal observation as I literally have seen meeting rails caulked shut, with condensation still originating at that location, but the above explainations would seem to hold some water as far as contributing to this effect. Your thoughts?..... and btw, I don't agree with that first statement that faulty weatherstripping would allow airflow, and therefore prevent condensation, however I have heard the "shelving-effect" explaination offered before.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Inspecting windows after installation

#15 Post by HomeSealed »

... I'd add that placing tape across the meeting rail as fenex suggested will help diagnose whether or not meeting rail air leakage is the main culprit. :D Good idea.

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